Regarding (Abraham had 8 sons who divided his estate to form a number of small kingdoms)

What about the rest of the population who owned the rest of Palestine. To make it as simple as possible, if a refugee came to USA and bought a corner shop and fathered 8 sons, does that mean that those sons will inherit every single property in USA? Small Kingdoms? Isn’t that an exaggeration…? you surely do not believe that a refugee who has just been able to afford to buy a cave suddenly became a king, and his children created 8 kingdoms in Palestine.

( Where did Ismael go when he and Hagar were so rudely kicked out because Sarah got jealous… had her own child, etc.? Were they kicked out or did they establish a separate household? )

I am not a social worker dear, neither have I worked for CIA, how would I know where a mother and her child went 4000 years ago. No one will know for sure. People lose tract of each other in our very well connected modern world and it takes detectives to trace someone who lost touch for 10 years not 4000 years.

But still such questions and their answers are irrelevant. Thousands of women around the world are victims of jealousy, and their children suffer the consequences, and this woman and her child are one of such cases. Should Ismael and Hager have established a new home, or a hundred homes, there are still the rest of the homes owned by the locals who allowed them to live amongst them and in their town. How can you explain losing all properties in a country for the sons of one man?

(After all, Abraham went to Mecca with Ismael. Did Hagar maintain her place as concubine? Is Ismael buried in Hebron caves?)

All the above propabilities might be true, but this would still not change anything? The local Muslim Palestinians right now are a mix of the grand children of the original population who Ibrahim rented from them his cave, and the grand children of Ibrahim by blood inheritance.. not by politics from Russia or Poland. Those Palestinians grand children of Ibrahim are the Jews who converted to Islam and Christianity afterwards. There is no legal right for any strangers coming from Poland or Russia to claim ownership of one spot of dust in Palestine.

Should we give in to such claims, that any group of people who believe in a certain faith can inherit the land because at some point that land was occupied by their people, this will give the Muslims the right to demand to re occupy many countries from Spain to China. What is happening in Palestine is theft and politics created by Zionism, whose members are not even practicing Judaism, the majority are seculars.

and do you know what I do to remind me that the PROBLEM of Palestinians all around the world who are being denied their right to return home is intimately connected with the PROBLEM of Jewish Immigration to Israel, (and that includes immigration of "not really Jews…YET…. but close enough and we can fix that…. from Russia and other nations with tall, blonde Europeans")? I go to the various Aliyah sites, there are many of them. Programs like MASA, which are NOW saying to youth between 18 and 30 that the "Credit Crunch" shouldn't get them down, and they will be helped to go to Israel to "train" and get experience and maybe even stay! I go look at the 400 people who are flown in each week on the Nefesh b'Nefesh flights who are the typical folks you will see at a $300 Paul McCartney concert or down at the bar zone near the Universities on Friday nights so that they can "relax" until Monday. There are a few cute little families, and for colour, always two or three Chassidic elders who look a little bit lost. One guy generally comes out of the plane with the Torah scrolls wrapped in an Adidas Duffle Bag, and all those "thumbs up", "victory signs" and what have you make them not look like the disembarkment at Ellis Island of folks from Albania, Greece, etc and FAR less like the folks who manage to wade through the Rio Grande… no. These folks look like the disembarkment of the Marines in Kuwait! Vigorous and Pre-tasting Victory.

And every single one of them thinks they have a God-Given right to be there and every single one of them will say the "Arabs" have 22 other countries to go so what are they waiting for, and every single one of them are going to get help, money and support from the Jewish Agency and EVERY single one of them is going to have a bit of a culture crisis, because the propaganda is not like real life. They will realise that they had it good back in the States. That they never had to stand aroud and tell everyone what kind of Jew they were, they were just Jews and NOW they are going to be defined by what kind of Jew they are! How ironic!

All of them are looking out for number one, and each and every one of them is racist, maybe even the tiny tots.

Just noticed I erroneously wrote UNGA "Resolution 194." The Partition Plan was UNGA Resolution 181 .

Nice try Raphael, but no cigar. Apart from the fact that the 1973 war was precipitated by the war Israel launched on 5 June 1967 and its subsequent illegal and belligerent occupations of Palestinian and other Arab lands, not one Egyptian or Syrian soldier, tank or aircraft entered Israel within its borders as defined by UNSC Res. 242 during the 1973 war. The fighting was confined to Syrian and Egyptian lands occupied by Israel's troops. As for 1948, intervention by Arab state armies was caused by Jewish militias expelling at least 300,000 Palelstinians between passage of the recommendatory only UNGA Partition Plan (Res. 194, Nov. 29/47) and the declaration of the state of lsrael on May 15/48. Without pause, The IDF continued the eviction at an accelerated rate, including Acre. By the end of 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were expelled, 450 of their towns and villages destroyed and Israel occupied 78% of Palestine.

After you supply your "retort", I ask that you do not address me anymore in your comments. I am uninterested in this style of one-upmanship. It is not productive. Thank you for consideration.

I should have written:

Raphael:
Please cite one war that took place between Israel and the Arab states that was not either started directly or precipitated by Israel.

(2) In Iraq, among other tactics, Zionist agents from Israel (known as The Movement) planted a series of bombs in synagogues and Jewish businesses. Convinced that they were under attack by Muslims, all but a few thousand Iraqi Jews left, mainly for Israel. Details of the conspiracy were first revealed in 1966, when Yehuda Tagar, an official in Israel’s Foreign Ministry admitted his part. Israeli Mordechai Ben Porath was subsequently identified as one of the agents responsible for tossing hand grenades into the Shem-Tov Synagogue in Iraq, killing and injuring a number of worshippers. (For a detailed discussion of Israeli directed terrorism in Iraq, see David Hirst’s The Gun and the Olive Branch, Faber and Faber, 1984 and The Jews of Iraq, by Naeim Giladi, http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html)

(3) While testifying before the 1946 Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry on Palestine, Chaim Weizmann, a leading Zionist and Israel’s first president: "I wouldn’t like to do any injustice; the Muslim world has treated the Jews with considerable tolerance. The Ottoman Empire and the Arabs received the Jews with open arms when they were driven out of Spain. The Jews should never forget that."

(4) Rabbi Sassoon Kehdouri, Iraq's Chief Rabbi for 48 years, speaking before the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry on Palestine: "Iraqi Jews will be forever against Zionism. Jews and Arabs have enjoyed the same rights and privileges for a thousand years and do not regard themselves as a distinctive separate part of this nation."

Give me a break! We don't believe the propaganda you peddle and neither do you, but you think you can be slick and get away with it here. We know the score. Sorry.

People like to ignore those early years, that it was so long ago, that immigrants aren't like that anymore, that Israel is the aggressor now. But those years are important. The seeds were planted then. As in my first point earlier. If the Arab nations had not attacked, we would not be having this argument now. Everything after that is connected. And now the Palestinians have less. But they have their lives, and life is paramount. Your father didn't moan for his dignity and it doesn't sound like you did either. Nor did the Jewish refugees of Europe. Your are right it's boot strap time. For the Palestinians.

My father was a poor immigrant, and his family didn't get a penny from ANYONE to try and make a go of it. When I myself became an immigrant, I pulled my own bootstraps up, didn't expect any help or benefits and mostly, didn't displace a single human being to do any of it. This is the way things work, unless one is privileged and believes it's his or her "birthright" to get stuff in Israel at a big discount and whatever refugees are waiting to return can be damned.

I find it sick that you pull the image of poor wartorn folks waiting at the rail of The Exodus when we know that's not how it is now or how it's been for over 60 years! Time to stop lying.

Iqbal,

It is wonderful that Jews entered Arab facilities to learn. But such an environment can be destroyed quickly. Again, German Jews entered the same facilities. We still study Freud and Jung. But that all changed didn't it.

Thank you for the opportunity Iqbal, but I can not continue this much more Iqbal.

FIrst you declare that I am pulling "Jew hate" out of a bag of tricks we Jews use that is meant to confuse you. Then you ask how come it is that so many people hate the Jews. You want to have it both ways, to deny it, and then to hold it up as evidence of how it must mean we are bad.

Do you really think it is unique to Jews, who have their own language and religion, to get a negative attention when they are the minority in another country. Is it the Hispanic's fault for being persecuted in America? Is it the Roma's fault for their difficult time in Europe? Is it the Arab's fault for being racially profiled in the West? You would have Jews continue the same cycle of shame, which is for them to look at themselves and point the finger and say "I am the reason I am hated". You have no vision Iqbal because you can not even wrap your mind around anything that does not conform to your truth. Your versions of your history run in such a straight line that it can not be true, because no one's history is so straight as to not be questioned ever. And your treatment of me is far from honest. You would vent anger from one side of your mouth and deny it is in your heart with the other. You are a forceful advocate for your people and I wish you well. I am sure you are beloved among them.

Do you mean to tell me the anti Semitism surfaced ‘by Semites’ against ‘other Semites’ because the second ‘Semites’ have achieved too comfortable a position in society? Does this make any sense at all? If they hated their guts, why leave them until they achieved the so called ‘comfortable a position’? Why give them access to all education and science facilities?

(I know you think it is really convincing to call me a "fake" Jew, but no one listens to that except for people who already hate Jews)

Here we start as usual. It seems all of you studied under supervision of the same teacher, now as from my experience the minuet the expression ‘HATE JEWS’ appears, I know for sure that you are out of information ammunition and will start to dump any information to give the readers the illusion that you have been oppressed…AGAIN, and most important of all, you are heading to another expression and I will hear about it soon ‘anti Semite’.
The crème of your talk is, if any one disagrees with your views, then he is doomed as a ‘Jew hater’. What a convenient escape. What does Jew hater mean? For sure people hate for reasons, but not for having a different point of view or for embracing a faith. I never heard about Christian haters, or Muslim haters, or any other faith haters. Can you explain to me why you are always a victim? And hated by others for no reason whatsoever?