Comments on: The Palestinians; The Right of Return and the Right of Choice http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/ Free Minds for a Free Palestine Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:10:11 +0300 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-9161 Bella Wed, 27 May 2009 00:07:09 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-9161 Solomon2, is that the best zionists can do? I mean come on!!. Truth is not on zionism side therefor zionists must resort to such silly propaganda that even a child can refute. You have to do much better than that in order to "proove" there is no and never was any Palestine and Palestinian people. MUCH BETTER I TELL YA. The quality of zionist propaganda is so poor its unbelivable. Only an extremly ignorant person would come up with those questions. I hope they didnt strengthen your belief in zionism cuz if they did then you should know that those questions only proove how thin the ice on which zionism is built on is. Solomon2, is that the best zionists can do? I mean come on!!. Truth is not on zionism side therefor zionists must resort to such silly propaganda that even a child can refute. You have to do much better than that in order to "proove" there is no and never was any Palestine and Palestinian people. MUCH BETTER I TELL YA. The quality of zionist propaganda is so poor its unbelivable. Only an extremly ignorant person would come up with those questions. I hope they didnt strengthen your belief in zionism cuz if they did then you should know that those questions only proove how thin the ice on which zionism is built on is.

]]> By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-9160 Bella Tue, 26 May 2009 23:50:22 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-9160 Mary. Thanks for all the info. Only the ignorants believe the reason for the war was the hamas rockets as if israel didnt kill, injure and destroy before this war or before hamas got control of Gaza. There was no hamas in 1948, yet it didnt stop the zionist terrorists from expelling about 800 000 Palestinians from their homes and massacring thousands. Since when did israel ever did a real reason to comitt crimes? All they need is someone else to blame it on in order to feed the ignorant masses some lies to silence them. Mary. Thanks for all the info. Only the ignorants believe the reason for the war was the hamas rockets as if israel didnt kill, injure and destroy before this war or before hamas got control of Gaza. There was no hamas in 1948, yet it didnt stop the zionist terrorists from expelling about 800 000 Palestinians from their homes and massacring thousands. Since when did israel ever did a real reason to comitt crimes? All they need is someone else to blame it on in order to feed the ignorant masses some lies to silence them.

]]> By: Solomon2 http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-9129 Solomon2 Tue, 26 May 2009 15:03:55 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-9129 Win the contest! <a href="http://www.drybonesproject.com/blog/pages/D09524_1600.html" rel="nofollow">The State of Palestine Quiz</a> Win the contest! The State of Palestine Quiz

]]> By: Mary Rizzo http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8979 Mary Rizzo Sat, 23 May 2009 12:27:29 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8979 Dear Bella, thanks for that fantastic comment. I understand that it might look like a waste of time to see these documents, but on the other hand, they are there to demonstrate some things that later may be important, since the US has allowed the weapons to be used solely for "defence" purposes, in showing that it wasn't true and that the US had actually encouraged an "urgent" solution that included aggression makes them complicit and they are on record of it. The one I am studying right now is even worse, if possible. In it, it states that Israel and the US knew it wasn't Hamas firing the rockets.. therefore the pretext is thwarted. Here are the actual segments of text: For the first five months, the cease-fire held relatively well. Some rockets were fired into Israel, but most were attributed to non-Hamas militant groups, and, progressively, Hamas appeared increasingly able and willing to suppress even these attacks. No Israeli deaths were reported (although there were injuries and property damage), and Israel refrained from retaliation. Nevertheless, each party felt as though the other was violating the terms of the unwritten ceasefire. Hamas demanded­ unsuccessfully ­that Israel lift its economic blockade of Gaza, while Israel demanded­ also unsuccessfully­ a full end to rocket fire and progress on the release of Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit from Hamas’s captivity. then Rocket launches, while still occurring, have decreased markedly. Since Israel’s unilateral ceasefire began on January 18, 2009, there have been about 40 sporadic rocket launches into southern Israel, far fewer than occurred on average per day just before Operation Cast Lead. Moreover, Israeli officials believe that smaller militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, and not Hamas, have fired the rockets, as they did during the cease-fire (although it is possible that Hamas is enabling or acquiescing to these attacks while preserving deniability). The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) maintains that air strikes took out half of Hamas’s rockets and other munitions stockpiles as well as a substantial number of rocket launchers and Hamas military commanders who had been in charge of the launches. The IDF also admits that its estimates are inconclusive. This is important! They knew and admit and it's on record in a policy study paper that was financed by the US Congress so that they could vote in the Defense Program for Israel and pass the Memorandum of Understanding and also decide to not let money in for "reconstruction" that would be in any way connected to handling by Hamas. You see, they admit that the Hamas was not even the reason, and the pretext becomes evident and the result, yes, desired in advance for whatever reasons (and you point them out well) still has the end effects. In law they say that this is "vitiated", that there is a defect at the form or from the outset and the very fact that they themselves harm Palestine saying they are trying to rid it of Hamas, but admit Hamas was not firing the rockets.. well... the implications are enormous. You are right that you can't lose. and I know the day will come when your country if free and so will we all be then! Dear Bella, thanks for that fantastic comment.

I understand that it might look like a waste of time to see these documents, but on the other hand, they are there to demonstrate some things that later may be important, since the US has allowed the weapons to be used solely for "defence" purposes, in showing that it wasn't true and that the US had actually encouraged an "urgent" solution that included aggression makes them complicit and they are on record of it.

The one I am studying right now is even worse, if possible. In it, it states that Israel and the US knew it wasn't Hamas firing the rockets.. therefore the pretext is thwarted. Here are the actual segments of text:

For the first five months, the cease-fire held relatively well. Some rockets were fired into Israel,
but most were attributed to non-Hamas militant groups, and, progressively, Hamas appeared
increasingly able and willing to suppress even these attacks. No Israeli deaths were reported
(although there were injuries and property damage), and Israel refrained from retaliation.
Nevertheless, each party felt as though the other was violating the terms of the unwritten ceasefire.
Hamas demanded­ unsuccessfully ­that Israel lift its economic blockade of Gaza, while
Israel demanded­ also unsuccessfully­ a full end to rocket fire and progress on the release of
Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit from Hamas’s captivity.

then

Rocket launches, while still occurring, have decreased markedly. Since Israel’s unilateral ceasefire
began on January 18, 2009, there have been about 40 sporadic rocket launches into southern
Israel, far fewer than occurred on average per day just before Operation Cast Lead. Moreover,
Israeli officials believe that smaller militant groups, such as Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Al
Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, and not Hamas, have fired the rockets, as they did during the cease-fire
(although it is possible that Hamas is enabling or acquiescing to these attacks while preserving
deniability). The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) maintains that air strikes took out half of Hamas’s
rockets and other munitions stockpiles as well as a substantial number of rocket launchers and
Hamas military commanders who had been in charge of the launches. The IDF also admits that its
estimates are inconclusive.

This is important! They knew and admit and it's on record in a policy study paper that was financed by the US Congress so that they could vote in the Defense Program for Israel and pass the Memorandum of Understanding and also decide to not let money in for "reconstruction" that would be in any way connected to handling by Hamas. You see, they admit that the Hamas was not even the reason, and the pretext becomes evident and the result, yes, desired in advance for whatever reasons (and you point them out well) still has the end effects. In law they say that this is "vitiated", that there is a defect at the form or from the outset and the very fact that they themselves harm Palestine saying they are trying to rid it of Hamas, but admit Hamas was not firing the rockets.. well… the implications are enormous.

You are right that you can't lose. and I know the day will come when your country if free and so will we all be then!

]]> By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8960 Bella Sat, 23 May 2009 00:00:23 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8960 Dear Mary. Thank you for the link, i opened it and read some of it but to be honest i didnt read most of it, i simply find it useless to read what someone who wants a joint IDF-PA force attacking hamas has to say. If thats his solution then i cant waste my time reading his opinions. We all saw the sucess of destroying hamas in the Gaza war. Hamas came out with more support than before and the only thing israel managed to crush was families, houses and schools. What an achievement! Something to keep in mind is that such reports may say that the aim of a certain mission is to do one thing when in reality the true aim is to achieve something entirely diffirent, in this case it could possibly be to strengthen Hamas. When fatah planned a coup against hamas which lead to hamas taking over the strip we were led to believe the enemy thought this was a disaster when in reality it was exactly what they wanted, this way the siege could be fulfilled, a massive war could be started and hell could be brought on Gaza. The same people who adviced fateh to do the coup knew they wouldnt suceed and that hamas would find out and counter it. Both of them went in to the trap set up for them. At the same time they dont want all Palestinians supporting hamas in order to keep the Palestinians divided so they help the PA with things here and there such as the salaries in order to keep the situation as they want and change it at their will. Its all such a mess but we cant loose faith. As for me, i have a strong faith in Allah/God and justice, i know that evil empires do not last forever, justice will be served and sunshine will come no matter how crazy things seem now, we simply can not think we have lost. I pray for my country Palestine everyday as well for others who face injustice and for this world in general, it gives me hope and i will not allow anything destroy my faith in justice, God willing. And when i see blogs such as this one, i know for sure that we cant loose. Look at all the bright minds telling it like it is in a world where the truth has been made the lie and the lie has been made the truth. Being on the "right side" (by zionist definition) and simply surrender to someone who is stronger saves one a lot of headaches in these days, yet we so many soldiers of justice here refusing to loose their dignity. Zionists pay some arabs/muslims to write zionist trash , yet here we have people of the world writing the truth only for the sake of it being the truth, Palestine does not pay anyone to get people on its side yet people come willingly because they feel it is where truth lies without the propaganda, exaggeration and lies, simply the truth and it will beat zionism because the truth is more powerful than the zionist power and money. Dear Mary. Thank you for the link, i opened it and read some of it but to be honest i didnt read most of it, i simply find it useless to read what someone who wants a joint IDF-PA force attacking hamas has to say. If thats his solution then i cant waste my time reading his opinions. We all saw the sucess of destroying hamas in the Gaza war. Hamas came out with more support than before and the only thing israel managed to crush was families, houses and schools. What an achievement! Something to keep in mind is that such reports may say that the aim of a certain mission is to do one thing when in reality the true aim is to achieve something entirely diffirent, in this case it could possibly be to strengthen Hamas. When fatah planned a coup against hamas which lead to hamas taking over the strip we were led to believe the enemy thought this was a disaster when in reality it was exactly what they wanted, this way the siege could be fulfilled, a massive war could be started and hell could be brought on Gaza. The same people who adviced fateh to do the coup knew they wouldnt suceed and that hamas would find out and counter it. Both of them went in to the trap set up for them. At the same time they dont want all Palestinians supporting hamas in order to keep the Palestinians divided so they help the PA with things here and there such as the salaries in order to keep the situation as they want and change it at their will. Its all such a mess but we cant loose faith. As for me, i have a strong faith in Allah/God and justice, i know that evil empires do not last forever, justice will be served and sunshine will come no matter how crazy things seem now, we simply can not think we have lost. I pray for my country Palestine everyday as well for others who face injustice and for this world in general, it gives me hope and i will not allow anything destroy my faith in justice, God willing. And when i see blogs such as this one, i know for sure that we cant loose. Look at all the bright minds telling it like it is in a world where the truth has been made the lie and the lie has been made the truth. Being on the "right side" (by zionist definition) and simply surrender to someone who is stronger saves one a lot of headaches in these days, yet we so many soldiers of justice here refusing to loose their dignity. Zionists pay some arabs/muslims to write zionist trash , yet here we have people of the world writing the truth only for the sake of it being the truth, Palestine does not pay anyone to get people on its side yet people come willingly because they feel it is where truth lies without the propaganda, exaggeration and lies, simply the truth and it will beat zionism because the truth is more powerful than the zionist power and money.

]]> By: Mary Rizzo http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8959 Mary Rizzo Fri, 22 May 2009 20:59:43 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8959 <a href='#comment-8958' rel="nofollow">@Bella</a> - Hi Bella (lovely name!) I know that sooner or later I have to copy the PDF and try to work with it. The content is good. in the meantime, take a look at this: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CRS:_Israel_and_the_Palestinians:_Prospects_for_a_Two-State_Solution%2C_December_10%2C_2008 (then download the pdf, not the PSI one I mentioned) Dated 10 December... check the timing out. It's a congressional report basically "advising" Israel. If you look at it carefully, some terrible things jump out. Here's the Abstract: Abstract This report reviews the prospects of a two-state solution in the context of possible signs of progress and doubts raised in U.S., Israeli, and Palestinian circles during the Annapolis process (including questions of urgency). After outlining possible alternatives to a two-state solution, the report analyzes the policy challenges facing either an urgent or a more deliberate U.S. approach to promoting a two-state solution-including implications for Congress-on matters such as foreign aid, security assistance, Israeli settlements, and the treatment of Hamas (a militant Palestinian group that is a U.S.-designated Foreign Terrorist Organization, or "FTO"). But what do they mean by "urgent" approacch and "treatment of Hamas". Hm... take a look at these paragraphs: One reason that proponents of the peace process might believe that immediate action is necessary is their concern that the current political consensus favoring the peace process within Israeli, Palestinian, and U.S. circles is tenuous--particularly in light of upcoming leadership transitions in the United States (January 2009) and Israel (February 2009) and conflicting claims between PA President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas to Palestinian leadership.14 With the rise of Hamas's influence in Palestinian affairs, difficulties in maintaining strong consensus for negotiations in Israel, and challenges in getting top U.S. leaders to make sustained efforts to confront the many thorny issues that divide Israelis and Palestinians, the coming to power of a peace process skeptic among any of the three principal sides could stall negotiations for years. During the time of Oslo in the 1990s, a vast majority of the Palestinian people in both the West Bank and the Gaza Strip clearly accepted Yasser Arafat and the PLO as their legitimate representatives. Problems with internecine violence, divisiveness, and popular discouragement stemming from perceptions of widespread political corruption existed from the beginning of self- rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but with Arafat's death, the failure of the peace process until now, and the rise of Hamas, these problems have worsened. Although PA President Mahmoud Abbas has taken Arafat's place, his legitimacy as a leader of the Palestinian people is not comparable, and the Fatah party he leads is riven by internal divisions. In light of Hamas's rise, some wonder if the pragmatic secular nationalistic positions Fatah claims to take, including support for a two-state solution, have a political future. Leaving Hamas out of a negotiated outcome could lead the United States to pursue one of the following courses of action. One would be to trust that the Palestinian people would rally to Abbas's support in the event he reaches a final-status agreement with Israel, ratifying the agreement in a referendum or in some other manner regardless of Hamas's objections. Another would be to help the PA and/or Israel prepare for containment of Hamas or for military action against it. It is possible that a combination of both courses of action could be used. There are several risks involved with both courses of action. Entrusting the fate of a final-status peace agreement to a divided Palestinian public after so many years spent striving for resolution could lead to an unpredictable and perhaps demoralizing result (along the lines of the 2006 PA elections that brought Hamas to power).58 Even if the Palestinian public backs Abbas, Hamas could seek to nullify the popular will through force. Containment of or military action against Hamas could backfire, leading Hamas to broaden and/or deepen its control of Gaza and possibly also the West Bank. Even military success could come at great cost, given Hamas's entrenchment in Gaza and its possible attack capabilities against Israel (either with rockets or through direct attacks on IDF personnel or civilians). By supporting the use of force against Hamas, the U.S. could also open itself up to charges that it is the primary aggressor, possibly eroding the U.S.'s international credibility as an "honest broker" and guarantor with regard to the peace process. If any of these risks materialize, Congress could face requests for heightened economic and security assistance in a climate in which discerning whether potential aid recipients and their actions are hospitable to U.S. interests might become increasingly difficult. @Bella –

Hi Bella (lovely name!)
I know that sooner or later I have to copy the PDF and try to work with it. The content is good.

in the meantime, take a look at this:
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CRS:_Israel_and_the_Palestinians:_Prospects_for_a_Two-State_Solution%2C_December_10%2C_2008 (then download the pdf, not the PSI one I mentioned) Dated 10 December… check the timing out.
It's a congressional report basically "advising" Israel. If you look at it carefully, some terrible things jump out.
Here's the Abstract:
Abstract
This report reviews the prospects of a two-state solution in the context of possible signs of progress and doubts raised in U.S., Israeli, and Palestinian circles during the Annapolis process (including questions of urgency). After outlining possible alternatives to a two-state solution, the report analyzes the policy challenges facing either an urgent or a more deliberate U.S. approach to promoting a two-state solution-including implications for Congress-on matters such as foreign aid, security assistance, Israeli settlements, and the treatment of Hamas (a militant Palestinian group that is a U.S.-designated Foreign Terrorist Organization, or "FTO").

But what do they mean by "urgent" approacch and "treatment of Hamas". Hm… take a look at these paragraphs:
One reason that proponents of the peace process might believe that immediate action is necessary
is their concern that the current political consensus favoring the peace process within Israeli,
Palestinian, and U.S. circles is tenuous–particularly in light of upcoming leadership transitions
in the United States (January 2009) and Israel (February 2009) and conflicting claims between PA
President Mahmoud Abbas and Hamas to Palestinian leadership.14 With the rise of Hamas's
influence in Palestinian affairs, difficulties in maintaining strong consensus for negotiations in
Israel, and challenges in getting top U.S. leaders to make sustained efforts to confront the many
thorny issues that divide Israelis and Palestinians, the coming to power of a peace process skeptic
among any of the three principal sides could stall negotiations for years.

During the time of Oslo in the 1990s, a vast majority of the Palestinian people in both the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip clearly accepted Yasser Arafat and the PLO as their legitimate
representatives. Problems with internecine violence, divisiveness, and popular discouragement
stemming from perceptions of widespread political corruption existed from the beginning of self-
rule in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but with Arafat's death, the failure of the peace process
until now, and the rise of Hamas, these problems have worsened. Although PA President
Mahmoud Abbas has taken Arafat's place, his legitimacy as a leader of the Palestinian people is
not comparable, and the Fatah party he leads is riven by internal divisions. In light of Hamas's
rise, some wonder if the pragmatic secular nationalistic positions Fatah claims to take, including
support for a two-state solution, have a political future.

Leaving Hamas out of a negotiated outcome could lead the United States to pursue one of the
following courses of action. One would be to trust that the Palestinian people would rally to
Abbas's support in the event he reaches a final-status agreement with Israel, ratifying the
agreement in a referendum or in some other manner regardless of Hamas's objections. Another
would be to help the PA and/or Israel prepare for containment of Hamas or for military action
against it. It is possible that a combination of both courses of action could be used.

There are several risks involved with both courses of action. Entrusting the fate of a final-status
peace agreement to a divided Palestinian public after so many years spent striving for resolution
could lead to an unpredictable and perhaps demoralizing result (along the lines of the 2006 PA
elections that brought Hamas to power).58 Even if the Palestinian public backs Abbas, Hamas
could seek to nullify the popular will through force. Containment of or military action against
Hamas could backfire, leading Hamas to broaden and/or deepen its control of Gaza and possibly
also the West Bank. Even military success could come at great cost, given Hamas's entrenchment
in Gaza and its possible attack capabilities against Israel (either with rockets or through direct
attacks on IDF personnel or civilians). By supporting the use of force against Hamas, the U.S.
could also open itself up to charges that it is the primary aggressor, possibly eroding the U.S.'s
international credibility as an "honest broker" and guarantor with regard to the peace process. If
any of these risks materialize, Congress could face requests for heightened economic and security
assistance in a climate in which discerning whether potential aid recipients and their actions are
hospitable to U.S. interests might become increasingly difficult.

]]> By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8958 Bella Fri, 22 May 2009 20:36:46 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8958 Mary Rizzo, thanks for clarifying it. It seems i missunderstood what was meant. Anyway, i have in the past succesfully copied a PDF document to Word so it should work. The structure of the document might be diffirent though. Mary Rizzo, thanks for clarifying it. It seems i missunderstood what was meant. Anyway, i have in the past succesfully copied a PDF document to Word so it should work. The structure of the document might be diffirent though.

]]> By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8957 Bella Fri, 22 May 2009 20:32:48 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8957 Sami Jamil JadAllah, There is nothing wrong with that, dont get me wrong, I believe in the right of return as well as a huge amount of compensation to the Palestinian people, nothing less than that can be seen as an option. I just dont believe that one should be ruled out by the other and if one is to be ruled out then i choose compensation to be ruled out since there is no money in the world that are more important than regaining the right to return back to Palestine. Oh and as for the PLO, i wish it will be dismantled sooner rather than later. It has made so many misstakes and harmed the Palestinian cause so much that i almost consider it an enemy to Palestine, no i certainly do not believe that the PLO will recover our rights, aT least not in its current form. I believe a new PLO needs to be formed and also with a new name due all the corruption this current one carries. New name and new people that is. We now need to focus on cleaning up the mess of the PLO which will be hard as long as we have the Abbas gang leading the Palestinians. However when we see a new entity formed it must be the complete opposite of the PLO. I believe Hamas also needs to be reformed because they too have brought harm on Palestinians in the past when they used suicide attacks. Armed Resistence should only be used against soldiers and those that are armed, not civilians even if these civilians happen to be zionists living on stolen land. Suicide attacks and other attacks on civilians gave the enemy a propaganda tool against us so in the media people talk about "suffering of both sides" when in reality these two sufferings can not even be compared. Another thing the PLO were lozy at was PR, i mean look at the zionists who use representatives who wear nice clothes, speak good english and managed to portray themselves as those that are right and people that others could relate to, compare that with Arafat who looked like he never took a shower and spoke with such a lozy english accent that made people wanna destroy the tv everytime he was on, its the same with Abbas. Mostafa elbarghouti would do a far better job when it comes to promoting the Palestinians in the media than fateh ever could, it is like they were payed to not only work against our cause but also to portray Palestinians in bad light. Sami Jamil JadAllah, There is nothing wrong with that, dont get me wrong, I believe in the right of return as well as a huge amount of compensation to the Palestinian people, nothing less than that can be seen as an option. I just dont believe that one should be ruled out by the other and if one is to be ruled out then i choose compensation to be ruled out since there is no money in the world that are more important than regaining the right to return back to Palestine. Oh and as for the PLO, i wish it will be dismantled sooner rather than later. It has made so many misstakes and harmed the Palestinian cause so much that i almost consider it an enemy to Palestine, no i certainly do not believe that the PLO will recover our rights, aT least not in its current form. I believe a new PLO needs to be formed and also with a new name due all the corruption this current one carries. New name and new people that is. We now need to focus on cleaning up the mess of the PLO which will be hard as long as we have the Abbas gang leading the Palestinians. However when we see a new entity formed it must be the complete opposite of the PLO. I believe Hamas also needs to be reformed because they too have brought harm on Palestinians in the past when they used suicide attacks. Armed Resistence should only be used against soldiers and those that are armed, not civilians even if these civilians happen to be zionists living on stolen land. Suicide attacks and other attacks on civilians gave the enemy a propaganda tool against us so in the media people talk about "suffering of both sides" when in reality these two sufferings can not even be compared. Another thing the PLO were lozy at was PR, i mean look at the zionists who use representatives who wear nice clothes, speak good english and managed to portray themselves as those that are right and people that others could relate to, compare that with Arafat who looked like he never took a shower and spoke with such a lozy english accent that made people wanna destroy the tv everytime he was on, its the same with Abbas. Mostafa elbarghouti would do a far better job when it comes to promoting the Palestinians in the media than fateh ever could, it is like they were payed to not only work against our cause but also to portray Palestinians in bad light.

]]> By: sami jamil jadallah http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8952 sami jamil jadallah Fri, 22 May 2009 16:00:55 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8952 Bella, I do appreciate your statement and concerns. However I believe that NO organization whether UN or PLO or Israel can ever deny such an absolute right as that of return. That right will always remain as an individual right that does not die with time or with certain UN resolutions or by agreements. Having said that, I also believe that Palestinians do not, or need not spend their lives in refugee camps to secure or keep their legal rights of return. The fact that a Palestinian lives in Malibu Hills or Ba”ka’ refugee camps makes no difference as far as the right of return. My main concern and fear is realized today in a statement made by Nabil Abu-Rudina, spoke person of Palestinian Authority presidency who confirmed under the new peace plan, not more than 100,000 Palestinians will be allowed back to historic Palestine under a “family reunification plan” while the rest of millions will be allowed back into what remains of Palestine. Keeping in mind that the 400,000 Jewish settlers will continue to occupy 45% of the land while the rest and poor miserable Palestinians will occupy the rest of the West Bank. My fear is that the PLO was never ready and in fact it made it impossible for any organization to represent the Palestinians and sue for the Right of Return. If Jews who left Europe after the war were able to reclaim their properties why can’t the Palestinians do the same thing? I am raising the need for being smart and organized before it is too late. I am afraid that the Diaspora Palestinians will be the biggest losers when the dust settles down. As I see it, the Jews who left the Arab countries will be the first to get compensated or allowed to recover their properties, then the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon will share most of the remaining funds and the Palestinians will again be on the loosing end. There is nothing to be emotional about. It knows the games and the rules of the games and make sure you are a winner. We have been losers for such a long time, because we allowed fools and stupid idiots to take the lead. Never understood with the hundreds of thousand of professionals around the world we have to leave our fate in the hands of paid officials whose priority is not to recover our rights but run to the bank. If you think the PLO is competent to represents the Diaspora Palestinians then you, and I and the more than 6 millions are in deep, deep trouble. The Zionists took the world to the cleaners under false pretention, whey can't we make them pay dearly for all that they did? What is wrong with that? Bella, I do appreciate your statement and concerns. However I believe that NO organization whether UN or PLO or Israel can ever deny such an absolute right as that of return. That right will always remain as an individual right that does not die with time or with certain UN resolutions or by agreements. Having said that, I also believe that Palestinians do not, or need not spend their lives in refugee camps to secure or keep their legal rights of return. The fact that a Palestinian lives in Malibu Hills or Ba”ka’ refugee camps makes no difference as far as the right of return. My main concern and fear is realized today in a statement made by Nabil Abu-Rudina, spoke person of Palestinian Authority presidency who confirmed under the new peace plan, not more than 100,000 Palestinians will be allowed back to historic Palestine under a “family reunification plan” while the rest of millions will be allowed back into what remains of Palestine. Keeping in mind that the 400,000 Jewish settlers will continue to occupy 45% of the land while the rest and poor miserable Palestinians will occupy the rest of the West Bank. My fear is that the PLO was never ready and in fact it made it impossible for any organization to represent the Palestinians and sue for the Right of Return. If Jews who left Europe after the war were able to reclaim their properties why can’t the Palestinians do the same thing? I am raising the need for being smart and organized before it is too late. I am afraid that the Diaspora Palestinians will be the biggest losers when the dust settles down. As I see it, the Jews who left the Arab countries will be the first to get compensated or allowed to recover their properties, then the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon will share most of the remaining funds and the Palestinians will again be on the loosing end. There is nothing to be emotional about. It knows the games and the rules of the games and make sure you are a winner. We have been losers for such a long time, because we allowed fools and stupid idiots to take the lead. Never understood with the hundreds of thousand of professionals around the world we have to leave our fate in the hands of paid officials whose priority is not to recover our rights but run to the bank. If you think the PLO is competent to represents the Diaspora Palestinians then you, and I and the more than 6 millions are in deep, deep trouble. The Zionists took the world to the cleaners under false pretention, whey can't we make them pay dearly for all that they did? What is wrong with that?

]]> By: Mary Rizzo http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8949 Mary Rizzo Fri, 22 May 2009 15:08:19 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8949 Bella, I do understand the very good points you make, but I don't see it that way at all. There is no renouncement of the ROR and in fact, I believe that it is a strategy to implement alongside the call for ROR. Before the Gaza war (planned in advance) was set, (and I have the stuff to document that there was Washington insistence to do something before the expiration of Abu Mazen's term, which was precisely the timing of everything) there was a Palestinian Strategic Initiative that was "supposed" to start. It was setting all the demands on the table in a time framework, making Israel come up with the goods or be responsible for unilateral Palestinian moves. (I will publish the PSI papers as well, but I have them all on PDF and I have trouble copying them to another form) There was no renouncement of anything, but a pressing insistence on the demands that already exist, because so far, Israel has reneged on all agreements. Included in the things that must be obtained are the compensation (in spite of return, and especially in addition to it) for losses. There needs to be a "threat" coming that Israel will now have to start footing the bill for the occupation, the PA won't be able to do it any longer, as well as footing the bill for the damage they have caused to lives and property. It is an all-inclusive thing. They think that they are only on the receiving end, and they are wrong. Bella, I do understand the very good points you make, but I don't see it that way at all. There is no renouncement of the ROR and in fact, I believe that it is a strategy to implement alongside the call for ROR. Before the Gaza war (planned in advance) was set, (and I have the stuff to document that there was Washington insistence to do something before the expiration of Abu Mazen's term, which was precisely the timing of everything) there was a Palestinian Strategic Initiative that was "supposed" to start. It was setting all the demands on the table in a time framework, making Israel come up with the goods or be responsible for unilateral Palestinian moves. (I will publish the PSI papers as well, but I have them all on PDF and I have trouble copying them to another form) There was no renouncement of anything, but a pressing insistence on the demands that already exist, because so far, Israel has reneged on all agreements. Included in the things that must be obtained are the compensation (in spite of return, and especially in addition to it) for losses.

There needs to be a "threat" coming that Israel will now have to start footing the bill for the occupation, the PA won't be able to do it any longer, as well as footing the bill for the damage they have caused to lives and property. It is an all-inclusive thing. They think that they are only on the receiving end, and they are wrong.

]]> By: Bella http://palestinethinktank.com/2009/05/21/the-palestinians-the-right-of-return-and-the-right-of-choice/#comment-8946 Bella Fri, 22 May 2009 13:01:53 +0000 http://palestinethinktank.com/?p=3722#comment-8946 Sorry but i didnt like this artcle. Allthough good points were raised about the corrupt PLO and their stupidity and the threats Palestinian face due to the zionist - arab government alliance against the Palestinian cause, i cant help but feel that the author has lost hope. That is something you can never do if your a supporter of the right of return. It is that kind of attitude that makes people settle for whatever they can get when in reality they have a right to so much more. It is like some Palestinians in Jordan who considered King Hussein as some sort of hero because they were given citizenship in Jordan, they thought this was done as a noble thing for them, to get them out of refugeehood, when in reality it was done to help Jordan who needed educated people and help israel as well by giving these Palestinians a new citizenship with the hope that it will make them forget Palestine. With that citizenship also came efforts by the Jordanian government to erase the "Palestinianness" of the Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship, such as making it easier for those who claim they are pure jordanians to recieve good jobs, and by creating negative attitudes about Palestinians so people will simply think its easier to not say they are Palestinians, and by creating the attitude that it is UnCool to go to demonstrations/events in support of the Palestinian cause (such as during the latest war in Gaza, negative attitudes were created by making it seem those that go to such demonstrations are the "uncivilized people" with no "prestige") and by banning nakba events etc etc, the list is so long. My point is NEVER SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN WHAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO WHEN IT COMES TO PALESTINE. Sorry but i didnt like this artcle. Allthough good points were raised about the corrupt PLO and their stupidity and the threats Palestinian face due to the zionist – arab government alliance against the Palestinian cause, i cant help but feel that the author has lost hope. That is something you can never do if your a supporter of the right of return. It is that kind of attitude that makes people settle for whatever they can get when in reality they have a right to so much more. It is like some Palestinians in Jordan who considered King Hussein as some sort of hero because they were given citizenship in Jordan, they thought this was done as a noble thing for them, to get them out of refugeehood, when in reality it was done to help Jordan who needed educated people and help israel as well by giving these Palestinians a new citizenship with the hope that it will make them forget Palestine. With that citizenship also came efforts by the Jordanian government to erase the "Palestinianness" of the Palestinians with Jordanian citizenship, such as making it easier for those who claim they are pure jordanians to recieve good jobs, and by creating negative attitudes about Palestinians so people will simply think its easier to not say they are Palestinians, and by creating the attitude that it is UnCool to go to demonstrations/events in support of the Palestinian cause (such as during the latest war in Gaza, negative attitudes were created by making it seem those that go to such demonstrations are the "uncivilized people" with no "prestige") and by banning nakba events etc etc, the list is so long. My point is NEVER SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN WHAT YOU ARE ENTITLED TO WHEN IT COMES TO PALESTINE.

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