I feel very educated by this dialogue. I appreciate the forum.

This also makes me feel that solutions are very hard to come by.

Oh, I also must address the comment by Sharon, and the frustration that prayer was employed instead of action. I think it's beautiful that the prayer existed in the first place. Not every church even notices others in pain. Perhaps this empathy drawn about can work to create action. I think one must not fault this act and one must not think it must only be action of other means to bring about change. Change begins in our hearts and minds, before it reaches our hands.

I've just found out today that many pro-Palestinians have had their accounts closed by Facebook, with no explanation.

How dare they try to legitimize these terrorists!

In my first comment on this marvellous post by Mary I wrote:
"another proPalestinian website has been censored by Google:
http://liverpoolfriendsofpalestine.co.uk
Google no longer indexes this website (but Yahoo still does) and that means the webpages belonging to this domain are excluded from google search results."

I wanted to inform you that the restriction is still in effect. The question is WHY this restriction has been put in effect and by WHOSE request.

In a similar move, Google stopped indexing Norman Finkelstein's official website (though the restriction has been removed after many of his readers became aware of it):
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com
Read the story here:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/why-cant-you-find-normanfinkelsteincom-on-google.html

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we basically agree on the issues. :) Equality, classlessness, human rights, peace, education (a good one) and open information to all?

@Eva Ferrero –
Maybe they'll choke me to death by over feeding me organic zucchinis and goat cheese, every time I come around ;)

at one point of time there weren't any people with fascist ideas; however, at some point in time; probably 10 to20 K urs, a few individuals began to impose deviant [such as subjugation] thoughts on own people. So, we may have fascists with us for a long time.
to me, there exist [potentially] only two structures of society: fascist and socialist. An 'ideal' socialist structure wld be classless or classes wld be much blurred.
in a fascist societal structure like in US, 0001% of the pop owns 98% of USA. It is an extreme classful and thus iniquitous society.

an 'ideal' [this means nothing ever is perfect] constitution wld include at least these basic rights and stated tersely and explicitly: thou shall have equal healthcare, free higher education, vote to go or not go to war, one tier jurisprudence, right to be informed, etc.
tnx

"Also, I find that in order to know what Palestinians think, it's simplest to just ask them. "

Oh dear!! How right you are!! – Neri studies polls instead of speaking directly with Palestinians.
You know what? Mazin Qumsieh invited him publicly to come to his house and see the situation in Bethlehem/Beit Sahour by himself. But Neri didn't answer so far – I think he's (like most Israelis) simply scared to go there.

Mazin wrote an open invitation to Israeli mepeace members to come and meet him but only two of us replied and came. Neri – I go to Ramallah, Hebron, Abu Dis, Bethlehem – wherever I can go with public Palestinian busses and see! – I'm still alive :P … Yifat went there and immediately volunteered to give art-classes in Aida Refugee Camp. She, too, is still alive… Eitan Bronstein (whom you say you know) is there every week – all still living and in good health!!

So why don't YOU go and speak to Palestinians directly instead of quoting ridiculous polls?

@bozh –

“i have pointed out, that elected people to govern a country are in reality mere managers. ”

Agreed

“so, i shld have said that we need only one managing team at one time. However, US has a oneparty system. It is the best system ever invented for ruling over about 90+% of amers.”

Sorry, it’s probably my fault- I’m having difficulty understanding you, can you try and rephrase?

“if we adopt an enligtened constitution to guide us in interpersonal and international levels, that too might be considered a dictatorship ; especially by people who are genetically or otherwise inclined to be fascist; i.e., believes in inequality an dthe right of a fascist rule.
i hope that this clarifiication wld help in understanding what our goals shld be. Natch, i don't want utopia nor is it possibel to ?ever achieve. tnx bozhidar balkas vancouver ”

I don’t agree that people are genetically inclined to fascism. In fact, saying so puts forth a dangerous theory, in my opinion.

I wouldn’t want a ruling body either, but say the UN representatives were voted for by the people of each country- that could lead to much more beneficial results. I don’t believe in governing bodies, but I do believe in organizing councils, from the people, in order to get things (constructive things- not destructive things) done.
I’d go for utopia- aim high, right? ;)

@Neri Bar-On 15 –

“the missing element in Human rights”

what’s this mysterious missing element?

“i did not vote to any Israeli election so I do not know why you claim that the government is my government. This is the Israeli government and I reject many of their action as you. we are both Israeli citizen.”

Some things you say are redundant- yes, we are both Israeli citizens.

As for not voting- that’s nothing to be proud of. Again, you are the silence that permits. There are at least 3 viable parties you can vote for- all three are and have been in parliament for many years and need as many voices as they can get- that’s something you can do once in 2-3 years, to help further Palestinian liberation.

“I do agree with you, The Zionists had no right to come to Palestine (article 13), so the rest of what they did is outcome of that. I wonder is Mary think too as you do that Zionists had right to come to Palestine.”

Do you know what Article 13 is Neri?

What the Zionists did was not an outcome of them coming to Palestine, what they did was an outcome of an inability to accept the “other”- in other words racism.

“(did you know that in 1943 when Jews were 30% of the population and owned 6% of the land they payed 56% of the mandatory taxas ?) it is all here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1000.html”

What is that relevant to?

“I post this and other of my post in mepeace.org too. it is done because Marry do not post all what I write and she edit it too so it is a "safe" practice. this is part of my attempt to have actual conversation.”

Frankly, I don’t care about your beef with Mary, it’s just not what I’m here for. What I meant was that it’s rather suspicious that you post there, then here as though what I, or others say doesn’t deserve thought and an original answer. It’s very anti social of you, and I think mainly, it offends. I also think you have failed to answer Mary’s post, seeing as you are a moderator of MePeace, I’d think you’d want to defend it. Although, I must tell you, it takes about 2 minutes to see what Mary’s saying. The majority of the people are racists and aren’t very shy about it. Whatever you think you’re achieving- you’re not.

I’d also like to add about the things you say to Mary:

“ It is interesting to see that the majority of people discuss here are not http://palestinethinktank.com/ … they are Jews from you to Tali and Eva. some of this Jews are living on what used to be Arab property in Jerusalem and in Omer.”

Where do you live? A house in the sky? Are you not on Palestinian land?

I think I mentioned I’m an Atheist, I’d like to think my identity is respected. I also consider myself Palestinian, since I was born here and this is Palestine (no matter what some crazy Zionists want to call it), but I don’t want to confuse you any further. I’d also like to think that you could go beyond these identities, because these comments don’t make you look too good.

“If you wish to see what Palestinians think here is latest Palestinian pools done by Palestinian university:..”

Again- relevance? Also, I find that in order to know what Palestinians think, it's simplest to just ask them.

You wrote: "I belive that after two state solution state we can work together to have confederation where we reduce the religious ethno-centric elements we have in our nations for the benefit of all citizens."
Neri, 'solutions' that do not mention the right of return, regardless of the form they take (1-state, 2-state, and even 57-state as recently proposed by israel's ally King Abdullah of Jordan) are no solutions at all and are doomed to fail.

You wrote: "Did you listende to Bassem Eid who live in refugee camp?"
I advised you to watch the show (and in fact in its entirety) but why did you handpick Bassem Eid whose viewpoint was strongly rejected by the audience. Why dont you even mention Ali Abunimah? Let me remind you that Palestinians chose Hamas and therefor resistance.

You wrote: "Can you see that the Palestinian violent resistance is a war call."
Neri, Can't you see that your presence on Palestinian land is a war call? But you dont care, because your army is equiped with F16s, Apache Helicopters, White Phosphorous bombs and cluster bombs among an endless list of American made weapons paid by American tax payers.
Are you suggesting that violent occupation be answered just by nonviolent demonstrations (through which recently Tristan Anderson and Bassem Abu Rahme were shot by israelis, the former now fighting with death and the latter laying in rest) and israel's beloved 'peace' talks which have been proven fruitless?

You wrote: "fighting from Gaza with 2.5Kg bombs against 1Ton is stupid strategy that hostage many palestinian civilians in war zone."
I wonder what would your advice be to my beloved prophet David when he was fighting Goliath? Would you call him stupid (God forbid)? I'm sure Bassem Eid would advise him to surrender.

You wrote: "I am not sure the Lebanese experience" the 33-day war "as a victory".
I advise you to follow the news concerning the soon to come Lebanese 2009 parliamentary elections. I also advise you to focus on the election results in the southern cities of Lebanon. After all, those who suffered most in the course of the July 2006 war were residents of southern Lebanese cities.
Resistance is the path many Lebanese have chosen. It proved to be effective when in May 2000 they managed to kick the israelis out of Lebanon.

You wrote: "their victory is count of dead innocent Arabs by the Jews."
The huge number of "dead innocent Arabs" is not a victory in itself but the fact that they didn't surrender and bow to their ruthless brutal enemy despite this huge loss of life IS a victory and their resistance will bring about more victories (in sha Allah).

You wrote: "the honor of Palestinian home Key is seem to be more important then children life."
Are you suggesting that to survive under every circumstances (including homelessness and daily humiliatin among others) should be the goal of Palestinian children? Is this the bright future you are drawing for them?

Resistance is zionists' nightmare.
Goliath will be defeated soon (in sha Allah).

Palestinian land… not only Omer and East Jerusalem… Arabs lived in every part of Palestine. So, you have to admit that you too live on land that was taken from the Arabs, but you don't seem to recognise this.

Differently from Tali, I do not believe Zionists had a "right" to come to Palestine. Palestine, like all other countries in the region, was under mandate of European countries following the defeat of the Ottomans and this meant that it was on the road to its own autonomy and that it should never have been determined to be a Jewish State, which is what the Zionists wanted. If they would have come simply to live in Palestine with the Palestinians, and not in their place, we could think of them differently, but this was never their goal. In that way, they came either as colonial invaders or occupiers. They remained the same, and probably worse, in a sense, because they implement racist policies to maintain the Jewish State in Palestine. So no. I don't agree with her that they had any right to do it.

Eva is right about your misreading of Palestine, however, two of the editors are Palestinians. Haitham who is from Tulkarem and Gilad who is in exile until it returns to Palestinian rule. He recognises that Jews do not have a right to rule over it just because they "do". Most of the other contributors are also Palestinians, so what do you want, actually?

BTW, why not respond to the article, which is about MePeace and state what is incorrect about the article, with examples? Just your responses demonstrate that what I've said is true! You have fulfilled almost everything, and this is what is the most interesting aspect of all. Especially the claims that I censor you or edit you! Especially that people are banned from MePeace, but then they are "discussed" although they can't intervene. (not actually discussed, just dissed).

About your cut and paste, it's a fact. Someone told me that the posts here appear in 3 or 4 different threads on MePeace, he especially noted it because of the way you spell love (lave) and the order of presentation and total off topic-ness of it all. So, yes, you basically make a few posts, spam them around and then expect us to deal with them, when you don't deal with the actual content of the post that is presented… you call it a smear, but you don't rebut it at all except to insult (the international one, the use of the condemning "we" and many other things pointed out).

elsewhere, on DV mostly, i have pointed out, that elected people to govern a country are in reality mere managers. In US, elected people manage the affairs of the entire empire but, of course, such management is in toto controled by amer plutos or perhaps btwn 0001 to 5% of US pop.

so, i shld have said that we need only one managing team at one time. However, US has a oneparty system. It is the best system ever invented for ruling over about 90+% of amers.
so, as tali points out, one party rule is indeed dictatorial.

if we adopt an enligtened constitution to guide us in interpersonal and international levels, that too might be considered a dictatorship ; especially by people who are genetically or otherwise inclined to be fascist; i.e., believes in inequality an dthe right of a fascist rule.
i hope that this clarifiication wld help in understanding what our goals shld be. Natch, i don't want utopia nor is it possibel to ?ever achieve. tnx bozhidar balkas vancouver

May I suggest that you use a simple Word spell check before you post things on the net? And may I suggest that besides that you read your posts a second time – slowly – before you click on "submit comment"

Neri – this site is called Palestine Think Tank and NOT Palestinian Think Tank. Do you understand that there is a difference between "Palestine" and "Palestinian". Palestine is a region and a country, while Palestinian is a person or an adjective, a qualification. Anyone, even a Japanese or a Sudanese or South African can think about "Palestine", even though a Japanese is (generally) NOT a Palestinian – and so on? – Is that fine with you? In checking your texts before publishing them you would avoid such "misunderstandings" – and in general improve other peoples comfort in reading your texts. We all make mistakes, we all make typos, but on the long run it's really hard to read your postings – so many mistakes and typos could be avoided.. :)

Neri, this is the very last time I will tell you: if you have a comment with your ID Neri Bar-On, X email and X url, you have to keep it. Otherwise, the computer program files it in spam. That means, it gets posted when I get back in town or when I have time, sometimes missing a day or two. You continually change them. There is NO consistency and we have Bar-On Neri, Neri Bar-On1, now Neri Bar-On15, NB etc. The Urls change, the email (it's not even yours, take a look) so, it's easier for you to blame me for censoring you than to follow the instructions which have been now given to you 3 times publicly (this is the 4th actually) and twice in an email.

The rest of your comments are avoiding the discourse because you are the last person to know or care what Palestinians think. Besides, you take a poll from One Voice. We have an article about OV on this site, it's another Zionist cover operation. How original of you!

Anyway, I don't label people ethnically like you do. It's an ugly habit.

It is interesting to see that the majority of people discuss here are not http://palestinethinktank.com/ … they are Jews from you to Tali and Eva. some of this Jews are living on what used to be Arab property in Jerusalem and in Omer.

and you call this Palestinian think tank :)

If you wish to see what Palestinians think here is latest Palestinian pools done by Palestinian university:

Most Palestinians want unity government, poll finds
27 May 2009 17:54:55 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Mohammed Assadi

RAMALLAH, West Bank, May 27 (Reuters) – Most Palestinians support efforts to forge a unity government as the way to heal an internal rift that has hurt the chances of achieving a peace deal with Israel, an opinion poll published on Wednesday showed.

A survey by Birzeit University, based near the West Bank city of Ramallah, found 58 percent of Palestinians thought a joint coalition of the Western-backed Fatah movement and Hamas Islamists could best resolve their crisis.

Egyptian-sponsored talks between the factions, whose rift broke into open conflict in 2007 when Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip, were scheduled to resume in July after months of unsuccessful sessions, the latest of which was held on May 18.

A unity government could help overcome the crippling effect of a Western economic boycott of Hamas for its refusal to recognise Israel. The West backs Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who supports dialogue with the Jewish state.

The poll, for which 6,398 people were questioned in early April, gave a breakdown of opinion for those in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and those living in Gaza — unusual in polls of Palestinians.

It showed that contrary to past polls, more than 37 percent of Palestinians in Hamas-ruled Gaza would vote for Abbas's Fatah movement if a new parliamentary election were held, and just 23 percent would choose Hamas.

The overall result in such an election would be 31 percent for Fatah and 17 percent for Hamas, the poll showed. Hamas won the last Palestinian parliamentary election held in 2006.

Other poll figures predicted Abbas could defeat Hamas Islamist leader Ismail Haniyeh in a presidential election scheduled to be held next year. A separate survey conducted in March had given Hamas the electoral edge.

The survey also found two in three Palestinians living in Gaza, were optimistic about their future, despite an Israeli offensive in January that devastated parts of the territory.

About 1,400 Palestinians were killed and some 5,000 homes were destroyed in the 22 days of fighting Israel launched in response to rocket fire by Gaza militants at its cities. Fourteen Israelis also died in the conflict.

"Despite the tragic situation in Gaza, despite the last war, people look to the (Mediterranean) sea and they have hope. Without hope, it's difficult to carry on," researcher Ayman Abdulmajeed said of the poll.

i did not vote to any Israeli election so I do not know why you claim that the government is my government. This is the Israeli government and I reject many of their action as you. we are both Israeli citizen.

I do agree with you, The Zionists had no right to come to Palestine (article 13), so the rest of what they did is outcome of that. I wonder is Mary think too as you do that Zionists had right to come to Palestine.
(did you know that in 1943 when Jews were 30% of the population and owned 6% of the land they payed 56% of the mandatory taxas ?) it is all here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1000.html

I post this and other of my post in mepeace.org too. it is done because Marry do not post all what I write and she edit it too so it is a "safe" practice. this is part of my attempt to have actual conversation.

Originally Posted By Tali@bozh – @Mary Rizzo –

Amnesty has a branch in Israel, they deal mostly with the prostituting ring that goes on here. With out a doubt you have a problem, with an org that's in a country that doesn't acknowledge almost 50% of the population, but on the other hand- they are big. a big center that should be (and eventually will be) swayed left. I wish I could give an example of an education group that is universal and enlightening, but we're not there yet. But grassroots IS from the root up, and forgive my relentless optimism ;) I'm optimistic because I believe in the work ethic of human beings. My short experience in life (another root cause of said optimism) taught me that if you want to achieve something you have to make it happen- in other words- work. I see people working for it, thus it will happen.

I have to disagree on the idea of one political party, on the grounds that 2 are obviously not enough. I rather like that I have a choice and I think this diversity is important. What we lack, at this point is humanism as a point of departure. Human beings should be the be-all-end-all motivation of any societal action. A great example of a possible variety are Denise cuccinich and Ron Paul- one Rep, one Dem- both seem to think alike on the issue of war. You can't expect everyone to think like you, no matter how right you are- that's simply dictatorship. Whether there should be a governing body or not, that's a different question.

@Neri Bar-On1 –
Actually, human rights are quite simple- they�ve been enumerated by the UN. Sadly they haven�t been enforced, but they are very simple. I hope you�re aware that your government violates all 30 of these rights, everyday. And not just in the case of Palestinians. You personally have the right to sue your government for about 4-6 violations, in a court of international law.

The Zionists had every right to come to Palestine (article 13), it�s the rest of what they did they had no right to do.

Now we could argue whether rights exist or not till the sun goes down, but I doubt you would want the alternative. I heard it the first time you snickered at international law, but I believe strongly, that we should work to enforce it. If we don�t we are left with aforementioned alternative. Jungle law hasn�t gotten us very far, has it?

We are NOT a collective- we are very much an apartheid state (thanks to Israeli rule), where one is above the other. Palestinians donâ��t have â��territorial problemsâ��, they have â��human rights problemsâ��. Israel is an oppressor – oppressors have duties. When said oppressor fulfills itâ��s duties, we can start talking of sharing of the burden.

On a different point, I�ve also seen that you copy paste the majority of the stuff that you write here. Why not try to have an actual conversation. I find that it helps me learn new things, even if I basically say the same things over and over again- saying them differently every time, puts them in a new prism and broadens my view.

unlike you and Tali I take seriously what I write and my intentions, and while you smear others with titles
"lurker on MePeace" instead of admitting the people do find mepeace.org as valuable place for discussions.

if you read my post on Human duty you will find that it include Israelis and Palestinians and this is what we should expect from any one who respect others. this is not reconstruction Human rights, it is the missing element in Human rights that You and Mazin ignores.

Originally Posted By Mary Rizzosomeone who is a lurker on MePeace just told me that Neri's posts here are cut and paste spamming. That he copies over and over again the same points and posts them in various places and even here. He said even the spelling mistakes are identical.

Why are you doing it Neri? And, as I said privately, if you don't reprint all the comments and also this link, then you paint a very biased and unrealistic picture of this discourse. If you aren't going to handle it in the way that normal people do, as if every space is your spamming platform, just don't even bother. I will not allow the blocked comments through (and they block because you do not use the same identification information, there are at least 7 or 8 different ones on this thread alone) because I don't have time to waste. Besides, as you say, who cares about what an Italian Jew thinks? Why do I even bother reasoning with you. You are the only one whose opinion matters. How could i dare forget!?

btw, human rights are simply rights that all humans have or should. Stuff like freedom of movement, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom to not be arbitrarily arrested and held without trial. What is so horrible about them? That Israelis know they are being denied to those people they occupy and this makes them change the argument to "duties" and then to duties of Palestinians?

@Mary Rizzo –
I agree on major groups- we can't all completely agree and we should definitely stick to our principles (someone's got to do it). though I still think we can use them. There's also that "power in numbers" thing to consider. Bozh said that they had over 300 members, but only a few did the work. That's usually the case, but an org also has to be able to say "I have this and this many people officially on my side". Both Amnesty and PETA did something very smart- you want to be a member, you have to pay. I think money is another commitment we make- it does make the world go round and all that.

I'd love to see that video- how about a link? :)