Israeli “Peace” discussion groups, common pitfalls and how to recognise them.
By Mary Rizzo • May 13th, 2009 at 14:19 • Category: Analysis, Hasbara Deconstruction Site, Israel, Newswire, Palestine, Religion, Resistance, Zionism
WRITTEN BY MARY RIZZO Discussion groups are the salt of activism and networking. Even newspapers and magazines such as Newsweek and the NYT have realised that comments blocks of blogs are probably just as relevant to the discussion as the article itself.
So, we all have to know the best ways to get the most out of these situations and one of the key things to do is to avoid the pitfalls of letting Gatekeepers and Trolls dominate discourse and deviate the issues.
What they are "there to do" (in my view) can be divided into several branches:
1) Isolate opinions that are not to their liking, and in our case, ones that directly cite Israeli responsibility. These opinions are "imposed" as being off topic, irrelevant, beyond the pale, etc. The opinion is then discarded very rapidly and the gatekeeper cuts to a very routine "attack the person who did that", leading to point two:
2) Ostracise people who point out the inconsistencies of the arguments of those who are spreading Hasbara (pro-Israel propaganda, often masked as being moderate or seeing that both sides have equal responsibility for the conflict). No one wants to be in the position of the isolated person, and many will not find others who defend them, so this is usually the most effective mechanism they use to keep all issues only where the Gatekeeper wants them. It also creates divisions within the group, which is useful in establishing new (or initial) leadership roles, all of them informal, but very much used.
3) Lead discourse into areas where there is no risk of bringing up difficult or uncomfortable issues, which would invariably exacerbate the weakness of the Gatekeeper's position.
The role is generally NOT assigned, but it is often the person or persons who post the most often and speak in the plural "We think this issue has been covered", who speak making global assumptions about the group, "No one is listening to you", and the insinuations that behind the scenes you are disapproved of, therefore, the person has a position of authority that is recognised (but undemonstrated) and it implies you are in a minority and others who are too busy or shy would like action to be taken, but delegate it to another. They often will point out in a very general way to “rules of conduct”, (such as treating others with respect), which are broad, vague and certainly not even related to what is going on or to the actual discourse that is being made. I call this “rule smokescreening”, since they insinuate that agreed-upon rules are being violated and that is a way to cover over all of the uncomfortable arguments. Most of those pointing out the rules (often by reposting them in the heat of a discussion), by the way, are actually the most frequent violators of them! They do this almost always to Pro-Palestinians who they consider “extremists”, (differently from the “good Palestinians” who tow the line that they like to call “moderate”), even though there is nothing extreme in them at all besides extreme disgust at injustice.
The Gatekeepers often (always, actually) misquote, take out of context, manipulate your and other comments and imply that you personally are not acting in an orthodox or appropriate way, while they are certain they are behaving correctly. They believe you are not onto what they are doing, but they need to be exposed. They also will deny they are doing it, which makes it more interesting. One very interesting example of what they do is to refer to “banned members” who will serve as an example. On many boards, which I will illustrate more in detail below, the banned person’s entire history of intervention is wiped out. Only those who assiduously participate may even remember the content or context of the interventions, but the name of the banned person remains as the “evil uncle reminder”, so that others can know that there is someone out there who paid for his misdeeds and they must have been so terrible to have caused him to be banished from the family, therefore, the interventions are gone, and the memory of what the banned person did is left in the hands of the gatekeepers themselves to manipulate as a fear factor to keep everyone else in line.
I will state what I believe they are trying to achieve, besides controlling the way persons interact in discussion. They want to assume a position of authority and leadership. If they don't have a majority, they will make a “ghost majority”, just like the "People have told me this and that" and "You are wasting bandwidth here" and "What are you here to do?" (as if the others are standing in an orderly queue and you have jumped it and need to be shoved back down the line). So, that is a group dynamic thing of POWER. But WHY? Why do they do it? Because they themselves do not have a strong argument that is watertight. It is very hard to declare "I'm democratic but I want a Jewish State" and to insist upon "being realistic" since of course, they are the ones with the privilege. (Like Dylan sang, "if you ain't got nothin, you got nothin to lose" but those with privilege hang onto it with tooth and nail). Being realistic means accepting normalisation immediately. Accepting a moderate position (favourable to Israeli hegemony) and especially, being the critical voice of Israel, but not TOO much… “Israel is here to stay as a Jewish State” seems to be the sentence they use to frame all discussions. For them, it is forbidden to even question the status quo at all, as if it’s all been settled and any mention of what it means to continue in this way is going against peace and is instead seeking war.
These “moderates” want to pretend they support your cause, but the problem is YOU, that you are intransigent and stubborn and if you are not Israeli or living in Occupied Palestine. You obviously can't speak as you do with authority because you are defective from the outset. "You don't live here" is a common “insult”. An international can really, at that point, only thank their lucky stars they don’t (that is, if they are not Palestinian, in which case they lose no matter where they are living).
Now, those Zionists who live in Europe and the West have another game going. They want to believe they are at the progressive vanguard. If you show them the holes in their argument, they turn it into an ad hominem attack. At that point, it gets personal, because they insist upon that kind of interaction. A load of them say, "you never saved a single Palestinian life", "You are damaging and breaking the movement", and make attempts at putting all kinds of huge failures onto your shoulders. You see, all of this has almost nothing to do with the comments you are making, the discourse you bring and the arguments you present. It all turns into a kangaroo court against YOU!
Another interesting occurrence is that many will claim that they are not Zionists, although they talk and act like Zionists, even believe in the same things as the ideology and pragmatic actions of Zionism and were raised with this belief and never have countered it. It is an interesting phenomenon, but one I have only seen on these boards. I think it is a tactic the Hasbarists have told them to try to use, because there really is no other explanation for it.
Trolls are those who establish a truly "counter" position and rather just want to steer conversation to another topic and distract everyone, especially those who are not experts, (because they themselves are far from being experts in the argument). They are generally going to put in a million facts, all of them totally irrelevant to any discourse going on, so that you waste time with arguments you are not even engaged in. They always find a group of other trolls to work with them, and they are probably more coordinated than Gatekeepers, because they can leave one board and then troll another. They also use the word "censorship" a lot.
In boards about Israel/Palestine, the hot trolling topic is to bring up one or many of the following arguments, often in a distorted or false way: women’s rights, gay rights in other Middle Eastern countries, Sharia Law including events they think are to be condemned in Muslim historical narratives, the Talibans, Saddam Hussein and WMDs, infibulation and female genital mutilation, Muslim traditional dress, the reactions to the Danish cartoons, internecine Palestinian political relations, holocaust denial, the childhood of the Catholic Pope, Wahabism and its restrictions, Iran (yes, just the word Iran conjures up the thickest of prejudices and is an all-purpose troll device). All of this serves to avoid confronting the arguments presented and to set the parties on “equal footing”. If one is talking about an Israeli human rights violation, it is natural for the Hasbarists to simply counter that with a human rights violation in Pakistan rather than to look in the mirror or to actually allow the opponent in the debate to articulate his thoughts and expect relevant debate in return.
Then there are the things I call “fear triggers”, which the gatekeepers and trolls are convinced are the most effective tools they have. They are codewords that they simply assume you are going to be trembling and in a state of mental distress the moment you see these words associated with you, and it is all a game of how they can associate things in the most "useful" way to what they are trying to achieve. They know we are public persons, or at any rate, in at least one social network, therefore, in relations with others, thus the need not only to control the "adversary" but to make sure he doesn't repeat the crime, they use words and concepts that are intended to make us back off. Some of them are realistically threatening. Years ago, one person who threatened me on an internet forum (Beliefnet) because I said he should not be using the school computer to harass others during teaching hours, told me he would report me "to the US authorities" and I would "never be able to travel there again"… How he could do this, I don't know, but he felt threatened because I exposed his weakness and his harassing me and others on time the US govt was paying him to work! I didn't take his threats seriously, but I reported him to the site, which banned him and he hounded me for a few years anywhere I tread! He opened up a hate site against me, (which I don't even look at, much less read) and of course put his students on assignment to troll my sites! So, this harassment can be something real, or… it is fear of being associated with ideas that either we do not adhere to or ideas that get bad press where we live.
The key words in these Palestine/Israel boards that are launched as fear triggers are the accusations of being Anti-Semitic or supporting terrorism. This is another way to deviate the discussion. They love this argument, especially in Europe, since Europe has some laws prohibiting certain discussion, including historical events following WW2.
Try to think how it might be for those who are Hasbara activists if they were subjected to the kind of ploys they use against us. If they mentioned a crime against an Israeli Jew and we decided to talk about the bombing of Hiroshima by the USA, or about the incestuous father in Austria. It would be as off topic and irrelevant as the mention of the Talibans is in a discussion about Palestinian events. But, people who promote Palestinian rights stay on topic. They have facts they want to present, and they don’t need to demonise the West or to point out its war crimes. A pro-Palestinian activist has got to ignore the diversion. Doing so isn’t always easy, and sometimes the alternative is simply to disengage and waste less time. Either way, the Palestinian discourse is thwarted.
I will close this presentation with a brief illustration of my own personal experience at some Ning boards.
Google developed a type of site that is quite interactive, known as Ning, which is a sort of social club where people join, assume a “persona” and then interact with one another. There are spaces for submitting blog posts, videos, etc., but the most dynamic element is the forum/discussion board, which functions more or less like a traditional Bulletin Board forum. Ning sites require an “owner” who often serves in the role of moderator and would ideally set the rules for participation, which should exist to 1) keep the Ning board dedicated to the argument that it is registered as (no one wants to see a political board turn into a place where one sells resort apartments or become a place for stalkers to pick up victims); 2) to keep the community relatively active. In this, there is generally no requirement that one post after joining, in fact, most members simply do NOT participate at all, and the active membership settles to its average, always incredibly lower than the listed membership; 3) to restrict certain material that it deems unsuitable which is generally determined by consensus as to what the site itself is dedicated to and almost always is only to prevent advertising spam and pornography, since both contain violations against some international communications laws.
The owner generally is expected to participate, or at least to motivate decisions taken such as banning, accepting re-admittance, accepting re-admittance under a new pseudonym, and other administrative tasks. The owner is not obligated to enforce opinions (although sometimes this seems to be his major task), nor is the owner granted a right to obligate or restrict any kind of activity by any of the members in any other venue whatsoever unless it is operating as if on behalf of the Ning. This means: if I use the name of the Ning group to host a meeting without prior consent or permission, I violate the owner’s rights, and this would be an acceptable motivation for removal of my account. If instead, I express my opinion on that site regarding issues the site deals with, or on any other site, expressing opinions about that site, it is fully within my rights to do so and membership in a Ning board does not entail surrender of my freedom of opinion. To be banned for this reason is an abuse of power.
Ning groups have a few conditions, actually. There are some that you must join if you want to have reading access. This creates membership, but that does not mean it creates “members”. There are others that allow you to consult them freely without needing to give any information at all, and if you like the group or only want be included as a member, it becomes a thought-out choice, that is, you didn’t join out of curiosity, but because you decided that your participation was something you wished to occur. Both groups share the feature that if you wish to participate in comments, you must become a member. Becoming a member requires you to give biographical information and assume a “persona”, which can be your own self or a pseudonym.
I found my first Ning group in Palestinian Mothers (http://www.palestinianmothers.com). It was founded by a friend of mine, Iqbal Tamimi. I fully support the platform of the group, and I joined because I wanted to be part of a discussion community that was outspokenly Pro-Palestinian. Since I have no problems with my own opinions being known, I join with my full name and my photograph. At a later point, a Palestinian friend of mine invited me to join a Ning called MePeace. Essentially, this group expected to be a dialogue group where “both sides” had a chance to contribute and members are automatically labelled as “peacemakers”. It didn’t take long to find out that this group was really very hostile to any kind of specific criticisms towards Israel, and when it happened the mechanisms illustrated above were set off. This occurred time and time again, with myself and with other members who were critical. Some members were banned or left because they felt mobbed, and some of them would come back with a new persona. I found out from these members that this was happening, because they told me. I would not interact much with the “new” personas, but watched as they attempted once again but with invented personal stories and other things that I personally find damaging to a sense of trust in a community. I want to know who I am dealing with and I don’t like it that some are peddling totally bogus stories. However, if this was the only way to remain on a board that cast them off, and they were determined to remain, that is the motivation of their choice, fooling people and making them believe something false is only a contingent result of it.
This group has an owner who was not participating for a long time. Actually, the active participants are limited to maybe only 5% of the members, with the same persons participating in the same way over and over again. One day, he decided to open a thread to allow people to ask him anything. I asked him what gave him the power to change certain very unorthodox membership rules as he was proposing, so that one had to “support the community” in all internet activity, which would mean, if we criticised it (and there was so much to criticise!) we would be the cause of our own exclusion. He did not answer that, but responded to autobiographical questions asked by others about how he studied in a Yeshiva in the USA. When I asked him where he received the money to travel in the name of this group, what became of donations made to the group, and questions of the sort, I found myself banned the very next day. Banned after a letter from him just a few hours earlier thanking me for my participation in the group! To be banned obviously eliminates all the interactions you have made, not only comments but complete posts and private messages, it removes your account and makes it impossible for you to obtain the email addresses of those you had been in contact with and might like to continue to interact with. It is totally Zionist occupied territory and there are a few brave souls who still battle there, but I honestly can’t see what the point of that is.
The next group I joined was Palestine Israel Crossroads, founded by one of the banned members from MePeace, who at the time was also a friend. It was (and I believe still is) a very small group of mostly Israeli peace-seeking people. The discussion was generally acceptable, but I soon learned that some of the rules carried forward from MePeace. That is, if you are an “international” (this does not include if you made Aliyah, because in that case you are Israeli when it suits you and something else when it fits the argument better) you are considered to be not really involved and you are open to more criticism, should you begin to question some things that disturb the belief these people have of being the vanguard of the Israeli peace-seekers. You are expected to simply ignore racist jokes against Muslims, to accept that the discourse of an exiled Palestinian is called a “stunt” and to be considered to be “extremists” if you support full right of return and don’t consider Gilad Shalit a valid cause for launching a war against a nation.
It’s slightly more civil than the Hasbara “let’s not play the blame game” then followed by semi-intellectual blather about new-agey spiral dynamics or other gatekeeping discourse that serves no function but to isolate anyone who promotes full Palestinian rights, but all the same, it’s a kind of framing of political discourse into an area that takes the comfort level of Israelis into account before all else. I left the group of my own accord after not liking the accusations one of the Israeli members was making in “explaining” my thought to others and getting it wrong. My suggestions for the principles, however, had remained intact. I don’t know if they still are. Last time I checked, it was basically a place to exchange recipes.
Lastly, I was urged to join Ipeace (how about those names, folks!), where supposedly many who were not satisfied with MePeace had transmigrated. I actually had to join before I could even take a look at it. (So don’t believe all those high membership claims made! The active members here are probably closer to 1%). Another “peace” group by an Israeli! The rules would be more or less the same: meaning, Zionists would control the discourse and if you were not going to go along with it on some level, you were to be ostracised. This did not take long to happen. Most of the members, at any rate, are into a generic kind of peace that is about rainbows, flowers and unicorns, as well as a lot of spiritual stuff spanning everything under the sun. Very little people knew about or were able to engage in discussion on Palestine, and when those of us who know and sought to engage tried, we were told to “tone it down” by the Israeli moderator. I basically ignored the site for months. Then I was told that there was a notorious post by the Israeli singer Noa (Achinoam Nini) which was justifying the Israeli war crimes against Gazans. I saw that the commenters were not engaging much, most of them thanking her for her “courage” and others telling her how humane she was. That is not a joke! At the time friends and acquaintances of mine in Israel were running the campaign to ask Noa to not do a charity performance for Gazan children, given her declarations. We all considered it hypocritical to on the one hand say about the destruction of Gaza with everyone in it, “this is the only way” and then to act all innocent and sing “there must be another way”. One can’t have it both ways. I mentioned this on the site. I was immediately banned. Apparently, if you don’t condone war crimes against Gazans, you are not a real peace-seeker!
So, with this experience under my belt, what are my conclusions? First of all, there is so far no such thing as an Israeli board that truly supports justice 100%. There are always some tricks that get pulled out of the Zionist hat. Some sites are just more blatant about it than others. Secondly, there is a group dynamics created on all boards, and not all boards are open about what their real agenda is. However, sooner or later, the agenda does get exposed. It is simply forbidden for Palestinians and their supporters to get a fair hearing, to be treated with correctness and for their arguments to remain on the table. My suggestion: dialogue and refine arguments with those who support the cause of justice for Palestinians, and that means, avoid the time-wasting and frustrating Israeli peace boards. They would have fit quite well in an Orwellian world where “War is Peace”. Comment and participate on sites that do not have gatekeepers, and learn to recognise their tricks and traps.
Mary Rizzo is an art restorer, translator and writer living in Italy. Editor and co-founder of Palestine Think Tank, co-founder of Tlaxcala translations collective. Her personal blog is Peacepalestine.
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"the time-wasting and frustrating Israeli peace boards (…) would have fit quite well in an Orwellian world where “War is Peace""
Very true!
In a similar vein I use to claim that in most instances "shalom" really means "Kill all Arabs!"…
now..this is good reference. an overview of jewish-zionist schmuck worldview in the era of blogging.
'by way of deception thou shall do war'..
Dear Mary,
Gilad once said "the truth is on our side". And that's what makes us strong and powerful. We do not need to deceive people. But the occupiers and their supporters should make a lot of efforts to hide the truth. The peace they speak of is just an illusion, a mirrage.
Thank you Mary, it was so illuminating an article (in harmony with your previous writings).
By the way, another proPalestinian website has been censored by google:
http://www.liverpoolfriendsofpalestine.co.uk/
google no longer indexes this website (but Yahoo still does) and that means the webpages belonging to this domain are excluded from google search results.
God Bless You
Dear friends,
"the truth is on our side". And that's what makes us strong and powerful. We do not need to deceive people.
The forum is available.
What Mrs. Rizzo fail to understand that unlike her "one sided" forums mepeace.org was created to be a platform for multi-political social network. This enable us to bridge many world views.
The only requirement we have, to post is to be able to respect the other side, respect people who support Hamas aggression as to respect people who support Zionist ideas. This is not easy task and some people cannot cope with the fact that some people think differently so they try to speak only with "like minded people".
The conflict is bloody, and bring a lot of pain, but we wish to support change to create a future that include all of us, include Hamas supporters and Zionists. for that we need to learn on each other and flex our brain to see that we are all humans and avoid people who call Hamas terrorists and Zionist Nazis, they do all effort to separate us beliving that they know the truth better then others.
Our question is : how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?
How we help people see humanity in any one of us.
@Neri Bar-On –
"Dear friends" – Imho there no "dear friends" of yours here. Wrong address.
"how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?" – Imho there's no SHARED future with you jewnazi thieves, robbers, vandalizers, torturers, murderers, genociders and consummate liars. Go back to where you came from – or to Birobidjan, your "Jewish kingdom". And many of you must face the court and go to jail, the best place for those of you who committed crimes against humanity.
As to the humanity in you: your comments here have clearly shown your inhumanity…
ByTheWay
Is this what gatekeeper do?
stop conversation that are not in line of the main ideology?
Is that Mary's criticism that you manifest here?
I am not any of the above description you gave, I hope that one day you will be able to see me for who I am and not as a daemon you need to fight.
Mary. Many thanks for this very valuable and insightful look at the Israel and Jewish peace group. In the US which is really the center of Zionist and Jewish powers, if there were any real Jewish peace movement, I think we would have peace between Israel and the Arabs long time ago. JStreet was incorporated about couple of years ago, perhaps a milder model of AIPAC and seems it is gaining track in the US and on Capital Hill, the real power base of Zionist and Jewish Americans. In my view, American Jewish organizations and individuals have always stood in the way of peace and have always undermined any US private or public efforts toward peace including making sure that those who advocate peace and even handed US policy never see the day light such as the late Senator Charles Percy, Senator William Fulbright, Andrew Young, and recently Ambassador Charles Freedman. There are dozens of American Jewish organizations that for the most part form the American model of the “Inquisition” making sure those who are suspects of being pro-peace and pro-US vanish from public life. Every aspect of American democracy and its exercise is under monitor whether it is AIPAC, Campus Watch, CAMERA, ADL, American Jewish Congress, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Middle East Forum, Middle East Research Institute, American Enterprise Institute, NGO Monitor; Promoting Critical Debate and Accountability of Human Rights NGO in the Arab- Israeli Conflict, The US Commission on International Religious Freedom, Institution for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education, Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace, Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, the American Jewish Committee, Islamist Watch, StandWithUs, Aish HaTorah, Jewish National Fund, Zionist Organization of America, Hillel Foundation ,Shusterman Foundation, Jewish Council for Public Affairs, Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organization, Steve Emerson’s The Investigative Project ( who made a living out of spying on mosques, Muslim and Arab groups, of course mosques and Arab and Muslim gatherings are open to the public, synagogues are not), even President Obama earned his own Jewish monitoring tax exempt organization “Obama Mideast Monitor Homepage”. With organizations like these and with the kind of power they exercise, I doubt if peace will ever take place in the Middle East.
@Neri Bar-On –
A friend just alerted me that Neri published this on Me Peace. This is the intro he put in:
This is yet another smear from Mary Rizzo, you can judge (if you have the energy to read) how accurate it is.
There you have it: "yet another smear from the Evil Uncle!" Neri is the Gatekeeper king. He is truly someone worth analysing because he fits the profile of gatekeeper to perfection, with all of its little tricks.
Let's take a closer look at his comment here:
NERI: What Mrs. Rizzo fail to understand that unlike her "one sided" forums mepeace.org was created to be a platform for multi-political social network. This enable us to bridge many world views.
MARY: I understand what it was created to look like. A multi-political social network, fine, which means all kinds of Zionists could be allowed to express the wide range of their views and this includes even saying one will not accept to hear the word "occupation", the constant: "let's stop talking about Zionism, I'm having a problem with this mantra against Zionism", "no playing 'the blame game'"…How many Palestinians and pro-Palestinian activists have had anything but MASSIVE abuse on that site? Go on, list them for me!
Shall we say, perhaps HIBA? Who doesn't mind that I'm kicked off the board for defending the Palestinian cause and then a few months later has the nerve to ask how I can help her or her friend (through a person unknown to me) to get an Italian visa!? Hiba is a case all to herself, who or whatever she may or may not be.
NERI: The only requirement we have, to post is to be able to respect the other side,
MARY: "smear"… that was respecting the other side??
NERI: respect people who support Hamas aggression
MARY: Look how blind he is,,,, can't even see that he writes Hamas aggression as if it is normal, and then,
NERI: as to respect people who support Zionist ideas.
MARY: since when is White Phosphorus and F16 an idea???
NERI: This is not easy task and some people cannot cope with the fact that some people think differently so they try to speak only with "like minded people".
MARY: This is why you mob, gatekeep and ban. Is there any other reason? What amazing projection Bar-On.
NERI: The conflict is bloody, and bring a lot of pain, but we wish to support change to create a future that include all of us, include Hamas supporters and Zionists.
MARY: oh, how humane of you. Where were you when I asked people to try to help get travel restrictions lifted off a human being in Hebron? Isn't that the first way to support change, rather than farting around on a board where you don't listen to anyone but your own hot air?
NERI: for that we need to learn on each other and flex our brain to see that we are all humans and avoid people who call Hamas terrorists and Zionist Nazis, they do all effort to separate us beliving that they know the truth better then others.
MARY: quit preaching. One is allowed to equate Zionists with Nazis if they act like Nazis, just as one is able to condemn terrorism wherever it comes from, whether from Hamas or the Israelis. Don't put a gag on any of us.
NERI: Our question is : how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?
MARY: ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE IN A SINGLE UNIFIED STATE WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AND THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR THE PALESTINIANS. Very simple. Very democratic!!
NERI: How we help people see humanity in any one of us.
MARY: I see humanity in everyone, I especially see the games and tricks. I am a trained psychologist and have been debunking hasbara for about 30 years. Try your tricks on someone else!
@Neri Bar-On –
I spoke/speak in my name only – everyone except you can see it.
As to your humanity: your comments here from a couple of months ago show clearly what kind of humanity your jewnazi brain is filled with.
As to your "shared future": go and ask the Palestinians, the OWNERS OF PALESTINE, those who you've been destroying and genociding for a century, what is to be done with you…
Thanks Sami! It's sad to hear that also in the US the "peace" boards are really there so as to render the best service to the Zionist cause.
Thanks also to BTW, Ginosz and Ali… I appreciate the interest in this issue. We have to recognise that this kind of activism requires special tools and the most important one is to recognise the mechanisms that are used again and again. It is almost like playing a game. Once you learn the rules, you simply refine your talent!
Needless to say this also happens in organizing lists for groups that also meet face to face. For some reason the accusers usually are all friendly and pretend like they never insult and accuse you on the list when they are in person or make very oblique criticisms that only avid list readers will understand. At least til they build a critical mass to attack you, of course…
@Mary Rizzo –
Hi Mary,
Much time passed since we last talked, I see your hate is still with you and you are insulted from a word "smear". I apologize, I simple can not your your vocabulary.
where did you get such conclusion: "First of all, there is so far no such thing as an Israeli board that truly supports justice 100%. There are always some tricks that get pulled out of the Zionist hat.". this is smear.
I do not know if you aware that Mazin Qumsiyeh is posting on mepeace.org he bring his views and discuss them with people. when you have no inferiority syndrome as you have, Palestinians from Gaza, WB and the world discuss and bring their views. we also have some cooperation projects on the go. so my hope is growing.
The reason that you want to post on mepeace.org of ipeace.me is because of the trafic and the quality of the people; otherwise I do not understand your motive to smear this sites.
we cannot have a solution in the middle east without the Palestinian (include the refugees) and the Israelis. to form it we need to think differently and out of Dogman.
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NERI: The only requirement we have, to post is to be able to respect the other side,
MARY: "smear"… that was respecting the other side??
Mary you are no side, you are Italian with emotional problem. you are no one that anyone take seriously Gilad Abuse you as he abuse any one else to inflate his ego.
You asked to be baned, then when you were banned you was happy that you can smear the site. but you did it anyway when you was on the site so there is no difference, we just got more people engages successful PEACE CAFE events and also donation to help palestinian start their parallel independent operation. we seek people who want to work together to build Palestine and have one future to all of us.
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NERI: as to respect people who support Zionist ideas.
MARY: since when is White Phosphorus and F16 an idea???
here example to you of who do not respect people with different opinions and conclude that if you are a Zionist you do not know that you support White Phosphorus and F16 attacks on innocent people. you think from your narrow mind that Israeli are the same Zionist of 60 years ago.
you show us why you cannot be part of mepeace.org, so why do you cry so hard to be baned.
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NERI: Our question is : how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?
MARY: ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE IN A SINGLE UNIFIED STATE WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AND THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR THE PALESTINIANS. Very simple. Very democratic!!
But your way is not democratic, as palestinian mother is no democracy as Iqbal showed. do you have democracy here?
A society need to build capacities and that is true for the Israelis and the Palestinians. but think you think in term of ONE MARY RIZOO , ONE OPINION you never had time to study sociology and how society change and form new social contracts. do you r voice valuable? I am not sure. after all in that case we do not need Italian jews to tell us what to think.
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MARY: I see humanity in everyone, I especially see the games and tricks. I am a trained psychologist and have been debunking hasbara for about 30 years. Try your tricks on someone else!
This is beautiful, you see humanity in any one but not in people who are Israelis or support the existence of Israel. you are not debunking hasbara Mary you are fighting you own shadows.
@J. C. Jazurski –
did you experince it in PEACE CAFE?
http://truthinjustice.ning.com/forum/topics/on-the-27th-march-2009-fourth
@Neri Bar-On
"Your Question:
Our question is : how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?
How we help people see humanity in any one of us. "
My Answer, coming from someone who has lived under military oppression, inequality and a long war for freedom and come out the other side:
"How do you envision a "shared" future which does not "exclude" anyone?"
You cannot have such a thing until all people are equal. Your above statement makes the very wrong assumption that you are referring to people who are equal with equal rights. This is wrong. It is like referring to a slave master trying to hold an "equal" discussion with his slave as he picks cotton for his master.
Your views are warped, big-time
Perpaps one day when you and others grasp this simple concept, then you may have real peace discussions, on equal terms. But will you ever be ready to hear what the other side really thinks? Or do you prefer to simply live in your world and just "imagine" what they think because the truth is too hard to hear.
@Mary Rizzo –
Mary, i visited this self loving judeocentric mepeace joke
What a waste of time
It is there to let 8 mild zionnazis feel ok with themselves..
this moron Ben Ari comes here and exposes himself in his 2nd paragraph (Hamas aggression Vs Zionist ideas). They are even good enough in being Zionist operators.
Let's move on…
meant to say
They aren't even good enough in being Zionist operators.
let us also note that the label "antisemitism" also [ab]uses 'jews'. The label apears to me as one of the bugbears 'jews' have invented in order to defend their perceived rights: right to be the light to the world; to be lenders and not borrowers; to have servants and not serve other; demand we accept their claim to being chosen, etc.
this bugbear is probably a millenium old. At that time, khazars with their cult began to migrate and settle in e. and c. europe. Preaching nonsense; spreading lies, intolerance/hatred, they simply reaped what they have sown.
i do not think that seasoned observers cease positing their obsevartion because they are called antisemites. What people may fear is loss of job or a suit. The use of the label "antisemite" is strongly approved by the ruling class.
so the [ab]users of that label are also eager to please the ruling classses in christian lands.
but one bugbear is not enough; thus, new ones were invented: mighty, tho tank-, state-, armyless hamas having balls to want to destroy israel.
then comes 'islamofascism'. Which is out to destroy no less than whole world. Hoping we'd believe and then join khazars in the fight against this peril.
but i got the headache!
but in reality the real bugbears are PEACE and christian world; that's the greatest peril to an expanded 'jewish' state. tnx
i've written about the fact that israel [in almost any shape/size] wld be too tiny and cld house no more than 1mn; mostly afro-asians with judaic cult. But i can't remember where i have placed the post.
it also seems that israel had never been of any strategic value to the christian world. I evaluate as factual that today with christian presence in pak'n, afgh'n, iraq israel is no longer of even narrow political value let alone strategic.
and enemyhood btwn christianity and judaism is real. it may have been a bugbear centuries ago but not any longer.
i do not know what excanaan possesses regarding mineral wealth. Is it about none? Thus, israel cldn't make a spoon let alone a tank if it wasn't for christians; their money, minerals, refined metals, know-how, etc.
since 'zionists' [this means no connection whatsoever to zion or shemites] cannot rage against christians, they rage against palestinians even tho they pose no military threat to the-as-yet-nonexistent country.
'zionists' were hoping that pals wld leave. 'Zionists' have tried; inflicted all kinds of crimes on them but they stayed.
and it seems that even more blockades, raids, torture, land theft, abductions, demonizations cannot ever make pals stop loving their land.
tnx
@Ban Sidhe –
Ben,
I agree with you that it need conditions that will make us equal.
The idea is that to reach such situation we need both the Israelis and the Palestinians to change. but we are not need equal change.
The Israelis need to change out of their Jewish-centric identity and the Palestinian need to gain responsibility and ownership of their freedom i.e. develop one coherent political system.
All that cannot start while we have settlements that need to be removed and while Israel occupation position.
All this cannot start till we have
we are equal by core, but we have different life condition; at the moment I think the prime goal need to be ending the Nakba and building a Palestinian state.
Gilad and Marry are against this ideas because they are idealists, they enjoy counting the Palestinian babies die in the name of right of return when we know that we must find compromise on that issue.
we must be wise and work in the process and not elude ourselves that some mighty force will come and save us all from this hell. even if that will come one day, I do not think it justify risking one palestinian baby.
So what Mary and Gilad do, they preach you not to listen to Israelis, they claim that they are saying the truth and they are quiting who ever critisize them, just look at Gilad Language "It is there to let 8 mild Zionists feel ok with themselves.." I am sure he believes him self, and know that this is a lie.
did you notice that Gilad and Marry are Jewish, they claim that by that they are know what a Jew is … what a grate way to abuse the Palestinian crisis for you ego.
@Gilad –
"They aren't even good enough in being Zionist operators. "
yes, because they are not Zionist as you describe them you daemons are palying you. Istael Zionist groups are weakenning. just look and see how Bibi is going to accept Obama direction and we may see two states (and one palestinian political system) in two years.
@ Neri Bar-On on May 14th, 2009 at 16:41:
You said:
I agree with you that it need conditions that will make us equal.
The idea is that to reach such situation we need both the Israelis and the Palestinians to change. but we are not need equal change.
gain responsibility and ownership of their freedom i.e. develop one coherent political system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I say:
You see, already you do not understand. Although you think you do, or you do from “your own perspective” of power that is. Simply look at what you just wrote above. You say you “both” have to change. This is incorrect. That may shock you, but it is the truth.
You see, the state of Israel is 100% responsible for what has taken place. You cry when they shoot rockets at you, but you created the cause for those rockets. Additionally if you were not on stolen land, those rockets would be landing inside Palestine, NOT Israel.. The Palestinians are living in an open air prison, which your people control every single aspect of. Palestinians have no control over anything what so ever, only their oppressors have that control. All Palestinians can control is their resistance to your aggression. Is that what you expect them to “change” the only thing they have left? This whilst you literally own everything but their souls? Surely you cannot be serious here. You cannot expect them to “negotiate” from such a position, while you hold all the cards and power.
So, let’s talk about what “change” you are referring to, obviously it is HAMAS , it is always HAMAS is it not? HAMAS exists because of Israel, you created it, nurtured it, fed it and now you don’t like it anymore. It was the same way with Arafat, but now you would prefer him to HAMAS. Even when Hannan Ashwari was a politician, she, a moderate, was attacked and untrusted. And now you have HAMAS. The truth is Israel is never satisfied with whom it must deal with. And may I remind you that HAMAS was democratically elected, just like your right wing neo-con government was elected by your people. And Palestinians (and many others in this world) view your government the same way YOU view HAMAS. You see, it is all in the way you look at things, and you are the ones in power, in control, hence you are looking at this from a position of power, it is all you really know as you have never been the underdog in the region, never been under siege for years, never had DIME missiles, white phosphorous or tanks and F-16’s or drones drop bombs on you in Israel. You can come and go as you like, you can travel to anywhere in the world, anytime. You can visit your family members, where ever they live. You can close down cities and roads when you want to celebrate your holidays, whilst canceling theirs. In short, YOU have freedom; they do not even have the basics of life. Yet, you want them to “change” when they have nothing to give up except their ability to resist you………..
only free and equal men can make lasting peace
And Please don’t use our discussion to slander Mary and Gilad to me. I have read Mary’s writings in the past and she can be quite tame compared to me, if I am being honest. So why you would have a problem with her and not me I do not know. And I do not personally know Gilad, nor do I know you. I take people as they come, until they give me reason to change my opinion of them. But I can tell you this, if I were to be a member of your group I would ask hard questions like Mary did. Either a group is a discussion group or it is a censored and controlled group. I say let people speak and have their arguments, let the chips fall where they may. People can fight their own corner we are all adults.
Your points and the comments remind me that so many consider themselves "defenders of the faith", and through their gatekeeping and general abuse, seek to enforce an orthodoxy of their own making.
Thanks as always for providing a credible alternative.
Brilliant thanks for finally putting this out. Much needed. These techniques are also blatantly visible on most comment web boards in the USA. Information Clearing House, Infor wars, Daily Kos etc all use this or allow these 'arguments' to flourish on their sites.
Now its becoming legislatively enforced at the gov level by the same backers (israeli-zio criminals) to shut up criticism of the Criminal Tribe.
[...] in establishing new (or initial) leadership roles, all of them informal, but very much used. Israeli ?Peace? discussion groups, common pitfalls and how to recognise them. | Palestine Think Tank interesting [...]
Funny, not so actually, I get e-mails from these groups – which I don't bother to open and wonder how'd they get MY name? You could not be more pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist than me. LOL. So now these is valid concern about the motivations of these groups – what my intuition told me when I delete the e-mails.
"Ban Sidhe on May 14th, 2009 at 18:19:"
Ban Sidhe well put argument . Mary works tirelessly for the Palestinian people. And Palestine doesn't have a PR company running cover on its actions.
Even the UN buckles under thhe treat of Israeli revenge.
http://canadiansforpalestine.ning.com/forum/topics/covering-up-israels-gaza
Correction:-Even the UN buckles under the threat of Israeli revenge.
@Neri Bar-On – First of all Neri Bar-On, no one cares about the ethnic-religious belonging or background of anyone. It is you who think it is important to bring that up in discourse. Why do you do it? Because to you this is how you must define people? Because you think it puts forward your argument some? Let me tell you, it is irrelevant, but not surprising. Yes, on MePeace (popular?? the place is an echo chamber of the same 15 people, so my friend who visits it says, and yes, Mazin told me as well he did not think it was a good investment of his time) they speculated that I must be married to a Muslim. Someone even asked if I could handle doing Arabic translation for the site… Seems that many just assume one is married to a Muslim if they support Palestine and are not Palestinians.
Now, onto the rest of what you say. You use so many gatekeeping ploys right here, you are doing us all a big favour!
Let's look through a few of them:
NERI: Much time passed since we last talked, I see your hate is still with you and you are insulted from a word "smear". I apologize, I simple can not your your vocabulary.
Mary's deconstruction: Show that you are a well-known figure to the author of this piece, thus you have authority to label her as a HATER (still hating!) and knowing that a "smear" indicated against a specific individual, which is what is intended (to smear Rizzo), but to Neri, NERI is MePeace and thus you project exactly what you want to do by reposting my article on the echo chamber.
NERI: where did you get such conclusion: "First of all, there is so far no such thing as an Israeli board that truly supports justice 100%. There are always some tricks that get pulled out of the Zionist hat.". this is smear.
MARY: I got it from looking at every Israeli discussion board I could find and participating in some of them. If it is run by an Israeli and frequented mainly by Israelis, you will have to expect that the sentiments of Israelis are the most important consideration. Even on Eva's board, where I questioned how Shimon Peres could give the keynote speech for a PEACE event (ironic how he justified the most recent WAR), I got told that it was not nice to Aharoni to question her! So yup… I get it from experience.
NERI: I do not know if you aware that Mazin Qumsiyeh is posting on mepeace.org he bring his views and discuss them with people. when you have no inferiority syndrome as you have, Palestinians from Gaza, WB and the world discuss and bring their views. we also have some cooperation projects on the go. so my hope is growing.
MARY: sure I know, and I have been told how often he is put down, has words put in his mouth and struggles to keep the issues on the table. Is there any Palestinian (other than Hiba, who we really can't know about since a friend of mine in Hebron never heard of her family and she didn't want to answer any questions about that) who get fair treatment and feels that forum is a valid place to engage in discourse and not simply a struggle to remain the less insulted possible?
NERI: The reason that you want to post on mepeace.org of ipeace.me is because of the trafic and the quality of the people; otherwise I do not understand your motive to smear this sites.
MARY: Traffic??? Are you joking?? We get more traffic here in an hour than you get in a week. Quality of the people??? YOU MUST be joking! I have encountered about 15 people who I believe are decent and able to engage. The rest have been just like you or even worse. I don't "smear the sites". I write about what happens and activists are quite aware of what your little boards are all about and how you operate. Now they have more analysis to use.
NERI: we cannot have a solution in the middle east without the Palestinian (include the refugees) and the Israelis. to form it we need to think differently and out of Dogman.
MARY: If your solution is to gatekeep and tell Palestinians what to do, then you will never have a solution. But you want normalisation, this is all you want. You maybe use Palestinian "friendship" to get it. Listen to me, it won't work. They don't trust you (Neri and Co) because you don't deserve it. You are gatekeepers, censors, tricksters and Zionist to the core.
—-
NERI: The only requirement we have, to post is to be able to respect the other side,
MARY: "smear"… that was respecting the other side??
NERI: Mary you are no side, you are Italian with emotional problem. you are no one that anyone take seriously Gilad Abuse you as he abuse any one else to inflate his ego.
MARY'S DECONSTRUCTION: Immediately after talking about respect, he goes to insult, including the "you are an international" one that I wrote about in the article. I am no one, fine. Did I ever want to be famous? I just want to be able to speak my views. We also have the "no one takes you seriously (and gilad)" There you have an example of speaking in generalistaions for the "ghost majority" where they speak on behalf of others.
NERI: You asked to be baned, then when you were banned you was happy that you can smear the site.
MARY: When did I ask to be banned? I was participating at that very moment asking about the horrible rule that people were to become "obligated" to promote and support Mepeace anywhere. This is totally unacceptable, and any normal person can see that. I wanted an answer, as well an answer about the money, since this is a matter that interests people. Knowing that Eyal travels to promote the site, that he is part a a Moonies group as well does make a few questions arise for those who know the relationship of the Moonies to Zionism. So, obviously, these matters are important and I would have loved to hear the responses. Getting banned first saved EYAL! I write about sites because I do internet activism and people want to know. Got a problem? If you can actually argue the content here, feel free. So far, you have not even tried!
NERI: but you did it anyway when you was on the site so there is no difference, we just got more people engages successful PEACE CAFE events and also donation to help palestinian start their parallel independent operation. we seek people who want to work together to build Palestine and have one future to all of us.
MARY: So you go to a peace cafe.. I would like to know what YOUR position and Eyal's and Yigal's was during the Gaza war. Tell me that. It's more relevant than a peace cafe. Palestinians don't need Zionists to build their future. They need Zionists to surrender privilege, that would be the only gift zionists could give.
—-
NERI: as to respect people who support Zionist ideas.
MARY: since when is White Phosphorus and F16 an idea???
NERI: here example to you of who do not respect people with different opinions and conclude that if you are a Zionist you do not know that you support White Phosphorus and F16 attacks on innocent people. you think from your narrow mind that Israeli are the same Zionist of 60 years ago.
MARY: So, the stuff was not Israeli? The Israeli Army (representing your people) did NOT drop that stuff? It came from Disneyland, perhaps? Israelis supported that war. Show me the statistics that point differently! I dare you to do so.
NERI: you show us why you cannot be part of mepeace.org, so why do you cry so hard to be baned.
MARY: then give me the motivation for my banning! I never got one!! How is that for interesting!!! Sounds like you know the reason, then spit it out! And while you are at it, give me the reason why John W was banned. if there was anyone more open to dialogue, it was him.
—-
NERI: Our question is : how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody?
MARY: ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE IN A SINGLE UNIFIED STATE WITH EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL AND THE RIGHT OF RETURN FOR THE PALESTINIANS. Very simple. Very democratic!!
NERI: But your way is not democratic, as palestinian mother is no democracy as Iqbal showed. do you have democracy here?
MARY: what's not democratic about one person one vote? Here? You mean on PTT? It's not a shared future, it's a site! PTT allows even you here, so what do you want? You help expose who the Zionists are. You are living education!
NERI: A society need to build capacities and that is true for the Israelis and the Palestinians. but think you think in term of ONE MARY RIZOO , ONE OPINION you never had time to study sociology and how society change and form new social contracts. do you r voice valuable? I am not sure. after all in that case we do not need Italian jews to tell us what to think.
MARY: "We do not need Italian Jews to tell us what to think"… guys, do I need to add more to this? Gatekeeper without even the slickness to not do it on other sites!!
—-
MARY: I see humanity in everyone, I especially see the games and tricks. I am a trained psychologist and have been debunking hasbara for about 30 years. Try your tricks on someone else!
NERI: This is beautiful, you see humanity in any one but not in people who are Israelis or support the existence of Israel. you are not debunking hasbara Mary you are fighting you own shadows.
MARY: There you go again, telling me what I think!!!! I have (not that many, but around 20) Israeli friends. Two ex-Israelis are my best friends in the universe. Zionists never interact in any way that is anything but slimy, sorry to say. So, right. I see them as humans who use tricks to communicate. I see them as they are: tricksters.
Now let me examine these pearls:
NERI: Gilad and Marry are against this ideas because they are idealists, they enjoy counting the Palestinian babies die in the name of right of return
MARY: It is you who have your money on those bombs, not Gilad or Mary, and we denounce the deaths by their names and their personal stories. To put such a sick comment of "they enjoy counting Palestinian babies die" is SICK to the core, but this is a hasbara trick, to associate people with the opposite of what they think.
NERI: when we know that we must find compromise on that issue.
MARY: who are "we"??? Neri and who? Israelis, Zionists? yup… True. This is why you will never win, because human rights don't accept compromise. You can kiss your shared future goodbye until you realise this.
NERI: we must be wise and work in the process and not elude ourselves that some mighty force will come and save us all from this hell. even if that will come one day, I do not think it justify risking one palestinian baby.
MARY: what crap you speak, Neri. What did you do to save ONE Palestinian baby during your last war? The hell will continue because Israelis desire it to be so. You do not understand Palestinian aspirations, much less give a toss about their rights! Don't go telling me you care about Palestinian babies!
NERI: So what Mary and Gilad do, they preach you not to listen to Israelis,
MARY: yup. 94% of Israelis supported that last war. (Jews, not Palestinians with Israeli citizenship), so listening to them means having to hear them justify killing for their Jewish State, when they have to share it, not hoard it all.
NERI: they claim that they are saying the truth and they are quiting who ever critisize them, just look at Gilad Language "It is there to let 8 mild Zionists feel ok with themselves.." I am sure he believes him self, and know that this is a lie.
MARY: If you criticise, Neri, do it, but instead, you don't. You attack. You don't have an argument and you never have! Gilad knows Israelis just as much if not more than you do, so I believe him. He doesn't have to support a lie, he is free to tell it like it is.
NERI: did you notice that Gilad and Marry are Jewish, they claim that by that they are know what a Jew is … what a grate way to abuse the Palestinian crisis for you ego.
MARY: tell me how this relates, and what you are trying to imply here by it. Those who have read this article and these comments know it is a gatekeepers' trick, but let me hear your explanation for this!
From the beginning Zionists have openly stated their intention to expel the Palestinians and steal their land and murder those who refuse to leave. That is what they did. It is explicit in their own histories of Zionism and of Israel. They started this before Hitler was born.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.
That is all there is to know about the subject. I am not interested in the invented justifications of murderers, thieves, zionists or any other criminals.
Mary, how come you waste your time on this joker?
In IsraeHell you can find some very intelligent Israeli leftist (Zionists), other that are true opponents of the Zionist project. Very few Israelis are doing an amazing Job for Pls. But this Neri is not one of those. He is just a 2 state, banal zio time waster
Our duty is to expose to our crowd, what these people are like. You did a great Job, he did the rest.. let's move on
@Gilad #30
Though in general you are absolutely right regarding what a "waste of time" a particular poster is, I still find it useful and informative to see just how easily someone of that mindset can be confronted with facts (just as you do in so much of your writing). It's the same pleasure I take seeing Dr. Norman Finkelstein tearing into someone (or their "argument" actually) when they're spewing nonsense. I think lurkers especially appreciate that someone takes the offending posters to task (as when I was completely new to the discussion and wondered if someone's points were valid or not).
There is a point where they can just be completely ignored, but I think there is value to the occasional post that says, "You're not fooling anyone."
shill
I was on one website and I wrote that even if Rachel Corrie was getting too involved in politics she did not ,as a young girl, deserve to die and indicated that young people at times are impulsive and emtional. The responses i received were all to the effect that I supported suicide bombers and the annihilation of Israel. I rsponded that this was not true but in the morning I was denied access to the website
Yea, it will be useful to analize Jewish methods. Just a couple of examples.
They succeeded in persuading many Moslems that the way to justice is through communism; and I believe that they keep many Moslems ignorant and helpless with this propaganda.
Jews mastered deceit by using time factor. Just dragging time works for them. Time makes usurers rich. False promise to do something has deceived many Arabs, not to speak of all others.
Provocation is the weapon of choice. They can get away with anything by provoking you to violence. But there is nobody in the world who can resist provocation indefinitely, and Jews know this.
However, can you think about why Moslems are fighting each other? I know there are serious differences lasting for some 1400 years about the succession to Mohamed and the lost imam etc. But is it a good time now for such war inside? Did anybody think about this? I think it's completely insane to conduct such inside war now.
@LanceThruster –
Dear Lance
I am with you,,, hence, i talk about them rather than talking to them…
@mick –
Cheers Mick, and many thanks for your comments. One thing that really bothered me about Neri Bar-On's comments were when he had to make sure that I was aware of both Mary and Gilad being Jewish, as if that would somehow matter to me, or make me dislike them. This is a misnomer of many unfortunately. There is a lot of anger out here in the world about Israel’s actions in the Middle East and I am one of those angry people. That anger shows itself sometimes in what I write. But being angry does not equate into being racist and anti-Semitic, as many in Israel would have people believe. I am happy to know many Jews whom I have much respect for the work they do for Palestine. Funnily enough, they do more for keeping the world from hating Jews than Israel with all its “hasbara” could ever produce.
I have lived long enough to realise that there are good and bad people in all cultures. The problem is that the premise of Israel itself is racist “A Jewish State” only for Jews. That is racist. Add in the fact that they have a 20% Arab population and how Israel chooses to treat that 20% where you can clearly see flagrant racism on a daily basis almost. There is no equality within Israel, as such, how can one expect Israel to deal equally with Palestinians in any peace process or negotiations if the general acceptance of anti-Arab racism exists to the extent it does within the Israeli population and government. Just today I have read that Lieberman, a public racist, wants to pass a law where Arabs/Palestinians cannot have any commemorations for the Nakba, under penalty of a three year jail term. That is Nazi like and racist, and to say it is such is not being anti-Semitic, it is calling it what it is.
Solution: Whilst there are some good moves coming from Obama, there are also some that cause me to worry as well and they could be the fact that the Jewish Lobby controls much of American politics sadly. I think the jury is still out on Obama at this point in time, but what needs to happen is the US needs to take a central role in forcing Israel into a fair and just process of negotiations with Palestine and other Arab states Israel has perpetual “problems” with. The key must be equality and full representation.
Additionally, what real reason does Israel have to really want a peaceful resolution? I will tell you…none! The trade off is not worth it for Israel. Just look at the Israeli deaths compared to Palestinians. And then ask yourself what would Israel have to give up in order to stop the few little rockets that land in Illegal settlements? You see? Not worth it to Israel to make peace, they’d be forced to give up much of what they stole and face the possibility of compensation for Palestinians who owned that land and their right of return as well as giving up many settlements whilst risking becoming very unpopular with their own radical Zionist people. Which, is quite funny that dilemma, because it was the Israeli government that created the “Politics of Fear” and the paranoid radical population it will now have to deal with should it be forced to make peace by world outcry and American support.
Funny thing, it would be for Israel’s own best interest for America to do this. Then perhaps one day Israeli people can experience what it is like to not live within a self created maximum security jail cell.
Mary, I can't believe you thanked btw for his mad ravings.
Gilad, you are the weirdest! Such a joker!
.
Hypocrites
This open letter is an enumeration of guidelines toward a possible PEACE, it is destined to BLIND supporters of ZIONISM who blather “peace” while live in a state of denial
Those who attempt to beautify the ugly fascist racist face of zionism, who apply themselves as a dripping lipstick on the lips of a pig in a futile attempt to revamp its gruesome features
Those who delude themselves that if they use their lovey-dovey words they could disguise the true vile nature, the wicked chauvinistic ideology and incessant crimes of the monster of zion
Those who feel no shame in defending a disgraceful entity which happened to be established by terror and maintained by terror and continue to exist by terrorizing those under its control
Those who act as a pathetic frayed fig leaf trying to conceal the obscenity and hideous disgrace of their state which was audaciously built upon the destruction of another nation
Those who ludicrously still marvel at and admire the naked emperor’s clothes when everyone in the world could see his pitiful nudity
Those who utter their disingenuous wishes to coexist in peace while choosing to live in a state of denial with their heads in the sand by refusing to acknowledge or remedy their injustices and wrong-doings
Those who refuse to listen to the voice of reason and the call of justice, and muffle each and every whisper that asks for it
Those who silence any call for GENUINE and TOTAL reconciliation and block every REAL endeavour that gives an honest diagnosis and point out to the genuine healing process which would lead to reconciliation
Those who attempt to deceive the world by accusing every defiant and decent individual who insists upon full restoration of rights, dignity and humanity of Palestinians, by accusing him/ her of extremism, fanaticism or support of terrorism
Those who endeavour to cover the rays of truth with a sieve of lies
They are worthy only of their karma
Collaborators of crime, who want to escape responsibility, keep the status quo, and dismiss the due rights of their prey under the disguise of nonsensical words like:
“New israel wants peace”
“We must accept facts on the ground”
“We must not go back in time”
“We must look forward to our common future”
What future, you hypocrites?
What good is a future built upon denied massacres and genocide?
What good is a future built upon incessant theft and lies?
What good is a future, in which the criminals would neither acknowledge their wrong doings nor have the desire to remedy the wounds of their injured victims
What is the meaning of words when actions counteract?
Have they never came across the saying “Actions speaks louder than words”?
Over the past sixty years you've had your say and you did what you chose to do,
And now,
Well, guess what?
It’s time for us to speak and for YOU to LISTEN to us and HEAR our say:
You are not welcome in our stolen land of Palestine with your existing mentality
Before we accept you and welcome you as guests and as our brothers and sisters in our land that you have stolen:
Go
Repent
Wash the blood off your hands
And weep
Weep, the souls of the little ones you’ve murdered
Weep, the innocent villages you’ve destroyed
Weep the blessed olive trees you’ve uprooted
Weep, the tears of little girls you’ve orphaned
Weep, the mutilated bodies of small boys you’ve devastated
Weep, the tens of thousands of youth you’ve disabled
Weep, the tens of thousands of homes you demolished
Weep, the millions of aching hearts of refugees you’ve created
Weep, the soil of the Holy Land you’ve polluted
Weep, the stream waters and ancient wells you’ve poisoned
Weep, the hundreds of thousands of bodies you’ve tortured
Weep, the hills and orchids you’ve disfigured
Weep, the alleyways you’ve dissected
Weep, the landscape you’ve cut to pieces
Weep, the towns you’ve bombed to oblivion
Weep, the dignified women you’ve dishonoured
Weep, the enduring elderly you’ve humiliated
Weep, the infants you prevented from getting to hospitals
Weep, the laughter and giggles of tiny ones you’ve muted
Weep, the scents of herbs and blossoms you’ve suffocated
Weep, the farms you’ve destroyed and confiscated
Weep, the culture of embroidery, humus and falafel you’ve robbed and claimed
Weep, the prophets’ messages you've abused and defiled
Weep, the Divine Guidance you’ve corrupted
Weep, the Ten Commandments you’ve violated
And when you weep long enough, hard enough and sincerely enough, you will discover that you don’t need to come to us begging us to talk to you or to forgive you, you won’t need to go around the web scattering, boasting and blathering about peace
Because if and when your repentance is genuine it will automatically show in your actions
You will know then what you have to do and how to do it, to be forgiven
And then and only then, you WILL find “peace” that you allegedly seek
…………
nahida, the exiled Palestinian
.
@Gilad –
I'll examine the term "waste of time" in the context of "peace-seekers" who are Israelis like Neri.
1) Yes, it is a wast of time to do it on their terms, when you can present many articles, debate on post after post and then find yourself "ethnically cleansed" as it were, upon the whim of the "owner". Why? because you have an opinion he doesn't like, obviously! This means your interventions, besides really only being read by about 10 people, 9 of them zionists who use the tricks described above, will be eliminated. With that time, you could have been communicating in a more fruitful way.
2) It isn't a waste of time in my view to be able to illustrate these techniques. It might help someone who finds themself in a position to advocate for Palestine and they are getting trapped in these games rather than advocating.
3) It exposes the hypocrites. They do not want you around, but they are also obsessed with you and can't stop talking about you and writing posts about you. (sounds like someone else we know, Gilad). As a friend of mine said to me yesterday, "Mary, it looks like Neri is stalking you. How else would he have known about this post and besides, he posted about it on MePeace, hoping to get a mobbing of you going all over again". come to think of it, I will publish the email he sent me regarding this today. Let me look for it now.
Bassman in Madchester ha scritto:
Mare, I don't know if I told you yesterday but Neri printed not once, but twice a blog post about your article …could it be if the comments don't go the way he likes he can just delete one of the entire threads and the comments with it? This might be a new trick or it's just his stress and desire to stand in the spotlight so he entered it twice out of his excitement… and of course he set the tone telling everyone that they would have to have energy to read it and the like as well as calling it a smear. It looks to me like he's got to assume authority in some way because he's mobbing when you aren't even there! Ya hit it when you said the Evil Uncle remark! But the really interesting bit is that a poster there has said that you sound better than "the one who's here now". Look how easy they show their hand. Did you see that they actually know and admit there is really one Palestine activist who has the energy to deal with them? Then there is Kahane (the guy who put up the picture of a Mosque in Israel that turns out WAS a mosque, but now it's an Israeli shop!) who is blahblahing and throwing dirt on you. But this is funny, because Mare, they KNOW they can't throw it on you, but on the memory they have of you. Looks like you left your mark, they are debating someone who isn't even present! But you're right sweets. MePeace is a complete echo chamber. I suppose no one can take Neri for very long. He is so full of himself it must get tiring and he has to learn a few new sentences or even his mob will get tired of him.
@nahida –
Fantastic, true and heartfelt, Nahida.
the thing that hits me every time is that they want "dialogue" but these peace-seeking Zionists always know that means that they have to keep talking and repeating the same "We know Return only will mean dead Palestinian babies and you love that", as if this is what we have to hear and then say yes. They have their ears plugged. This is the problem. Never once have been able to feel and understand what their words sound like to someone like you. That this means "my rights are more important than yours, so just accept that and we can have peace". So where is the change from anything that is happening now? Where is any attempt to change history and amend the wrongs? There is none at all. This is why they have to accept that there is one choice for them: to start listening because Palestinians are steadfast and will resist forever. They do not need Israelis permission to live and aspire to live on their own land among their own people.
Nahida,
Bwabawa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@nahida –
Nahida, your word is a well of truth and beauty…
"Because if and when your repentance is genuine it will automatically show in your actions "
Nahida, so spot on! You're a true humanist.
Mary, thank you, your research is invaluable. Many people don't take notice of internet forums and consider them marginal. But since mainstream media is completely controlled inside Israel and almost completely controlled in the US, this is the only line of communication pro-Palestinians can really freely use. The analysis needs to be made, so that individuals can take up the cause, knowing the dangers, pitfalls and tactics. This post is just as important as Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry.
Neri, it's people like you and Meretz that Martin Luther king said the following about:
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
And in my words: If Israel will continue to be the one you envision, Israelis like myself would rather live in Gaza, where real human beings dwell.
Nahida ,
like you say ,no matter how much lipstick ,its still a pig.
@Mary Rizzo –
Marry, it is some problem in ning that duplicate the post, it was not intentional.
I think this discussion is important, do you?
@nahida –
Shalom Nahida,
Can you see my humanity?
Do you care?
Dear Tali,
I am no Mertz and Martin Luther king was killed many month before I was born.
if you visist mepeace.org you will find that my opinion is different then what Marry rizzo represent. I do not see myself in what Mary write about me.
This victim hood that Mary rizzo and Gilad preach is mentality remind me the mentality of Israel when I was young thinking that the whole world wish us dead, it took us 40 years to get out of this and if to compare so the Palestinian victim hood is at the level of the Zionists 60 years ago, they may lead the palestinian to the same behavior as the Zionists, you said this is how it work for the Jews, so It must be true for the palestinians too, or do you think that the Palestinians are better then the Jews?
@Neri Bar-On –
The point is, you are unable to counter ANY of the assessments that I make here in this post, either in the comments or the post itself. You have acted just like you acted on MePeace: to smear and defame the person that you are against, insinuating that they are for "terrorism" and that if they do not "listen" and "accept" what a phantasmagorical "we" (meaning really YOU) say, then we are happy about Palestinian babies being killed. If we mention who has killed them, no… not your fathers, but YOUR generation and your children!! … we are then playing a "blame game" rather than stating information that you should be able to counter.
But no, you pull in these little games about abstract ideas such as accepting the humanity of Israelis. Yes, when they begin to act humanely, just as Nahida wrote, they will be accepted as they are.
You have NOT provided proof of the oppostion of Israelis to the recent slaughter of Palestinians.
Why was I banned? Easy: you felt threatened by discourse! You were scared that I would write about the fakeness of MePeace. I waited a while, actually. It was when the umpteenth Palestinian friend of mine received abuse that I decided it was time to expose the board and the agenda.
If you don't like it prove me wrong! Point out step by step why MePeace is a wonderful space of true dialogue and peace-seeking. I'd love to be proved wrong, but know full well what MePeace is. I also know that a few people make themselves "famous" and have little perks through it. I know people like yourself also use IPeace and MePeace to push your own little projects such as Spiral Dynamics, (sounds like Dianetics) and resort holidays! It's a place to also get names and contacts of people, for what purposes, only those who are using them know!
Go on, address my points. Tell us also why it is important to you to state what you perceive is my ethnic group and why "we don't need Italian Jews to tell us what to think!"
Start, Neri. If you can't and if you prefer to assume some kind of mobbing activity where I can't even comment, then think about how well you are serving your cause. You simply are a total representation of what I have assessed!
@Tali –
Thanks very much Tali. I checked out your blog posts and I am very happy to read you! What a refreshing change of pace from the standard "peace" activist à la Neri Bar On!
I actually have many many more observations to make about that board. I also appreciate the reflections that other friends of mine have made about it which you can read on the Ning Palestinian Mothers. Many have had experiences there that have been desolate.
One thing that I should mention: MePeace takes it really hard when they are spoken about elsewhere, but they reprint material as much as they like from Palestinian Mothers in order to create a conflict themselves. You see, Nahida was banned after one post, then she became the object of derision for weeks. I did what I could to present her case, and of course, I eventually got banned (never did they tell me why, but I have my ideas!!) Now, Neri wants DIALOGUE when he was the chief advocate of my banning, and even engaged in certain accusations that are penal against me. When I told him, he took them down. But he didn't get a slap on the wrist. You see, perhaps they are afraid of Nahida's facts and they are afraid that they will get into trouble with me because it is so transparent what they are about and I do not fail to show it. Then, Eva was banned, they started to print her material there on MePeace. Then another friend of mine was abused and left, I heard yesterday that Neri put his photograph up on MePeace!!! Neri either stalks the other boards to create "monsters and enemies and evil uncles" there, or he has an obsession and fear that others listen to Nahida, Rizzo and the other pro-palestinian activists who are treated poorly, are banned or leave. This is why he has to repeat here and there "you are no one" "we don't need you to tell us anything" etc.
This is just a severe lack of listening to the other. It is the problem of Israeli hypocritical peace activists in a nutshell.
@Neri Bar-On –
Problem is, Bar-On… the Israelis REALLY ARE KILLING the Palestinians. It's not some fake fear, it is damned real! Can't you even see that? Or is your blindness so profound?
Mary, your world view that every one needs to agree with you, and if he do not agree with you it mean that he is an enemy. youe languague as in here is fulll expression of your pain by the Evil in this world.
you are not willing to cooperate with Israelis who have Zionist ideantity because you think that the Racist Nazi Zionism that you and Gilad describe is the real Zionism. and you hunt and blame of being a layer any one who different you.
Mary this is not the first time you are banned, nor the first time you are blocked. it is not because of HASBARA it is because you and the way you express yourself.
and see what you preach here – not to come and read mepeace.org for separation , israelis are out of your camp. your peace is when no more Israel exists.
We tryed for very long time to talk, but we found that you do not talk with us, you smear our work and miss describe our intentions. what you do here too. and we should not ban you from here and when such important topic raise we need to discuss it in mepace.org too.
Israelis REALLY ARE KILLING the Palestinians
this must be stopped.
how will we stop it is where we do not agree.
funny that I wrote to you that many times, and you repeat it as you never read my answer.
Dear friends,
I'm really happy to hear a lot of people are saying "Hey! The emperor is naked!"
Now the people are beleiving their own eyes. And the zionists have a very hard time to persuade people that those who say "the emperor is naked" are stupid.
They are employing a lot of techniques and tricks, and Mary is exposing them. We do not need to use the same techniques because we do not want to fool or deceive anyone. But we should be aware of these tricks and traps.
We do not need to discuss marginal issues (though the zionists want us to do). I believe we should focus on the "cause & effect" logics. Occupation causes resistance, and if anyone is unhappy with resistance or its implications ("death of palestinian babies" as brought up by Neri Bar-On, for example) should try to end the cause, that is the occupation.
Mary,
I do not play games, and I inveite all the readers to see your use of Gatekeeping technology, did you have a course in HASBARA? did they hire you to support Gilad for making the palestinian more sure that Israel is so big and evil that their only way out of it is killing themselves?
I am a person I say what I think is valuable and share my knowledge. I do not come to educate any one, I come to invite people to create together a better future that include all of us, from Nahida to me and ensure we can have better justice and better life conditions to all.
any delay is killing children, the more we fight we have more dead children and I see no difference how you call him or her, I care for what we humans do to each other and must stop.
Ali,
I am no Zionist as Marry wishes you to think.
For the real issues
"cause & effect" logics. Occupation causes resistance, and if anyone is unhappy with resistance or its implications
This is true and Israel has responsibility for Occupation and it is important that at the end of this conflict we have proud Palestinian nations resisted to external influence and manifest true Palestinian culture.
The violence of the resistance also is part of the conflict and we should recognize this acts as worriers for the freedom of their nation.
our obligation to all the fighters is to end the aggression and find workable solution from the idea that we have one future that include all of us.
Ali, Israel occupation is now feeding its power not from Zionist ideology, it feed itself from Jewish children that are died. the way of resistance need to be considered and play a rule in Palestinian emergence . I find many Israelis seeking change from the inside only together we can break the current stupid bloody dance of hate and blood.
@Neri Bar-On –
This is what Neri wrote: This victim hood that Mary rizzo and Gilad preach is mentality remind me the mentality of Israel when I was young thinking that the whole world wish us dead, it took us 40 years to get out of this and if to compare so the Palestinian victim hood is at the level of the Zionists 60 years ago, they may lead the palestinian to the same behavior as the Zionists
Mary: Neri talks about victimhood = mentality (fear that Jews had that the whole world wish Jews dead… a mentality that was a construct i.e., irreal) Now, he compares the way Palestinians feel, some kind of vague fear that the whole world wishes them them dead. He then says Yes, the killing has to stop…
Bar-On, or can I say BARR-On, since you can't seem to get my name spelled right still, how can you have it both ways? it's either a false construct or Palestinians have an actual fear that arises from their actual situation. Try to learn essential logic.
the rest I'll reply to later, as you are doing a fantastic job being precisely what I depicted you as and totally blind to it as well!!
@Neri Bar-On –
You talk and say things without listening to others. You accuse, condemn and do not provide specific information, just general "the problem is you". This is the gatekeeper's way, and you will have to learn to be more clever here. this is not your space where we don't see your nakedness and turn to look the other way. We point it out. You have to address CONCRETE POINTS of the post and comments, or just stop spamming!!!!
I am no Zionist as Marry wishes you to think. That's what Neri says, while he comes out with the hasbara about what others think and states his objection to a single democratic, unified state with one person one vote! He wants the Jewish State in Palestine… is that not Zionism? He may call it what he wants, but that's the official name. Why does he feel he has to deny it? Where is the sense in that?
Originally Posted By Mary Rizzo@Neri Bar-On – MARY: then give me the motivation for my banning! I never got one!! How is that for interesting!!! Sounds like you know the reason, then spit it out! And while you are at it, give me the reason why John W was banned. if there was anyone more open to dialogue, it was him.
NERRI: Mary, your world view that every one needs to agree with you, and if he do not agree with you it mean that he is an enemy. youe languague as in here is fulll expression of your pain by the Evil in this world.
you are not willing to cooperate with Israelis who have Zionist ideantity because you think that the Racist Nazi Zionism that you and Gilad describe is the real Zionism. and you hunt and blame of being a layer any one who different you.
MARY: even if this were the reason (and we both know it's not… we know it was timed completely with the unwillingness of Eyal Raviv to say what he was doing with the money "donated" and this was a way to eliminate the person and the question in one fell swoop!) Having an opinion is reason to be banned??? Where in the rules does it say one has to love the persons who are denying Palestinians their rights? that they have to cooperate with them in spreading your bible of Normalisation and NOT BLAMING as if there is nothing wrong at all, and we have to just have a coffee with the other to make it all fine. So, one is banned because they don't think like the Israelis? That is precisely the point of my entire post: the advocates of any opinion that is not the same as the owner and his little friends will be mobbed, then insulted and harassed without their points being argued at all, and ultimately they will be banned.
You then proceed to follow them around the internet to harass them, smear them, post their material, discuss about them knowing they can't interact and you put up their photos. This is why NO ONE should join these groups unless they are aware of how they work and what will be in store for them.
They will not be protected by a network there, as is clear when it turns out Mazin, who agrees with my analysis, is the "one" who is advocating for Palestine now. It is clear to all of us, but you can't see it, (this is your purpose, to make a smokescreen while attempting to recruit people for your own purposes which are unclear). So, people do not send your contacts there unless they are willing to be stalked and harassed.
Mary-
Thanks for taking a look Mary. I actually posted my thoughts about Nini's attempt at playing innocent a while back. So I found this doubly telling. The truth is, I find it hard talking with Israelis. The majority are capitalist, racist bots, and there's probably only about 15,000 Israeli "Jews" that believe in a true equality. I put it in quotes because most of them are self-described atheists, Marxists, anarchists and communists. I'm just glad I found the Tank, there's not enough Palestinian intelligentsia voices coming through, even on the net.
Neri-
"The man will die, but not his ideas."
I don't remember where I read it, but I believe it. King may have died, but not the validity of what he said and definitely not the situation which he described. I gotta tell you, if you're not Meretz, you sure sound like it, but you're right, there's no room for assumptions. That's why I made sure to check out mepeace.org, before commenting. I also usually refrain from commenting, when someone makes me angry, but I just couldn't help myself, in your case. I can't stand the Israeli pacifist notions of "equality", they are the silence that permit.
You may not see yourself in what Mary wrote, but I do, as you call me "dear" (a known Dershowitz tactic of making it personal- it's not- it's completely political) and put the words "Palestinians are better then the Jews" in my mouth as if I gave a fuck who's what. HUMAN BEINGS are murdered, tortured, repressed, humiliated, every day. You want to talk about ethnicity? – you know what I'd call that.
Since you copy/pasted here what you say in your forums, I guess I could have just skipped going there, but I don't have to read Mary or Gilad (Gilad, are you Israeli? Is there hope yet?!), I can just read your comments here. Usually I'm more forgiving, because you have good intentions, but it's time you admit to what we're doing. As for me, I live in Omer, we just uprooted a Bedouin village. That's happening right now, in my back yard.
And if you think the Israeli mentality of "everyone wishes us dead" is gone, look again. Ha'aretz newspaper (which I have to offset with Al Jazeera and Democracy Now!) reports daily of "growing anti-semitsm", when in reality, it's the same as it has always been. But keep it up and we'll get there. And look again in your own words:
"Palestinian victim hood is at the level of the Zionists 60 years ago, they may lead the Palestinian to the same behavior as the Zionists"
I'm very willing to debate with you tactics to getting the government to stop the occupation, stop brainwashing its children in the schools, and free the media. I'm not, however, willing to debate whether Palestinians will turn genocidal once we release the animal from the cage. (yeah, I know, you didn't say that- it's to make a point.)
Neri wrote:
Ali, I am no Zionist as Marry wishes you to think.
An achievement of PTT and other TruthTellers: more and more people find it a shame to be a zionist and try to distance themselves from this ideology.
Neri proposes: "shared future which does not exclude anybody"
My advice to him: as a first step toward being inclusive, try to gain a right of return (sth like Aliyah) for Nahida and millions of Palestinians who have been excluded from the future of their own land.
Jews did have a share of the Palestine, before israel was created, didn't they? And also in the democratic solution proposed by Mary, they will have a share. Nahida's advice to you is a serious one if you want to have a share in the future of the land stolen, maybe not by you but by your previous generations.
The emperor is still naked!
@nahida –
Salam Nahida:)
As always your words and poems are heartfelt and true. Always enjoy reading them. They are true because they are your experiences and life, they are yours, and you have lived them.
Tali, you can't imagine how refreshing it is to hear your voice. Neri acts as if those of us who support Palestinian rights simply aren't listening to Israelis, and that we are the problem. Actually, I said I have 20 Israeli friends, and that is not for lack of trying. I even have relatives in Israel, but it is as if I don't because they are racists and I can't tolerate racists. They think that calling me "Arab lover" is a horrible smear, so this says more than I need to repeat about it. Gilad is an ex-Israeli, so there is hope that others like you, him, his wife, will see the light and express yourselves in favour of human rights.
I will look more into your site, and please make yourself at home here.
Now, back to MePeace and to what Israeli "peaceseekers" there seek.
Neri has written this:
The last Gaza events may not be last. Hamas inability to accept Fatah dominance in managing the issue of the Palestinian nation can bring Israel to another assault.
Let's look carefully at it:
He foresees new wars. We all do, and why? We see that the conditions of Palestinians in Gaza have only worsened after the war and destruction, so of course, Israel can't consider itself off the hook and Gazans know no one will come to rescue them, so Israel will go to phase 2 whenever they want. Everyone knows it.
But, look at his reason: Hamas was unable to ACCEPT FATAH DOMINANCE. How is that for incapacity to accept responsibility for the war? How is that for being unable to realise that Hamas was elected (and not only in Gaza) by the Palestinians and it has every right to govern, so accepting to be overtaken by Fatah is the condition that they must bow down to so as to avoid war? "It can bring Israel to another assault". (You see, Israel is reacting!). This is only one sentence that was sent to me. Neri is an encyclopaedia of them.
But let's talk about others: an Australian Jew (so according to Neri, he shouldn't be anyone to listen to) is right now trying to convince others that Justice calls are "War Cries". How is that for setting the agenda. Take justice off the table, and you will get your peace. Hell, isn't that the status quo of sorts? You will avoid being bombed off the planet or burnt to death with chemicals if you just quit asking to have justice and ACCEPT that Israeli Jews rule and that is just the way it has to be.
Oh, yes, Peace and Dialogue go in one direction in the Zionist camp.
@Neri Bar-On –
Good morning. I wish to reply to a few of your writings below:
You wrote:
“This victim hood (that Mary rizzo and Gilad preach) is mentality remind me the mentality of Israel when I was young thinking that the whole world wish us dead, it took us 40 years to get out of this and if to compare so the Palestinian victim hood is at the level of the Zionists 60 years ago, they may lead the Palestinian to the same behaviour as the Zionists, you said this is how it work for the Jews, so It must be true for the Palestinians too, or do you think that the Palestinians are better then the Jews?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is quite telling Neri. You are basically expressing one of the big Zionist fears, and you most likely are not even aware of this fact. With all due respect, let me explain; When you liken the current situation of Palestinians to the Jewish history of persecution, then follow up by saying the Palestinians could then become exactly like the Zionists, you have effectively proved that despite your claims to want Palestinians to have the right to be free, you do not trust them to be satisfied with freedom and self determination. You believe, wrongly, what is the deep dark Zionist fear, that should they actually become free, you jump to the conclusion that they would treat Jews, as Jews have treated them. This premise has racial overtones. To assume that oppressed people, once free, would then become the aggressors and oppressors is wrong. In Ireland the Loyalists assumed the very same thing about Irish Republicans and Nationalists; they were wrong and so are you. Actually, this is one of the biggest reasons people in the world are so shocked at Israel. Because Jews know what it is to be persecuted, yet they have become the persecutors. If you respect Palestinians and their rightful cause for freedom and equality, then you cannot tie in that irrational fear your Zionist State has preached for many years. You either believe and trust in Palestinians and their cause, without any reservations, otherwise you will remain part of the problem by holding the views you expressed above. I hope you will reflect on that and consider those points.
Next, you said to Mary:
“you are not willing to cooperate with Israelis who have Zionist identity because you think that the Racist Nazi Zionism that you and Gilad describe is the real Zionism. and you hunt and blame of being a layer any one who different you.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Neri, the entire premise and ideals of Zionism are separatist and racist in and of itself. Zionism is not Judaism, although your country has married the two into one for its own benefit, this is the problem. You appear to be arguing that there are varying degrees of “Zionism” and that some Zionists are nice because they want peace with Palestine, or want to discuss the issues of peace with Palestine. When the reality is that they want the “Zionist Version of Peace” which I can assure you if they were pushed on this issue in debate, one would soon see that their version of peace would not match the majority of the worlds version of peace or the version of peace the Palestinians expect and deserve. Anyone who believes in Zionist ideals has already become part of the problem and will remain part of the problem until they see the difference between their faith and this warped right wing neocon racist nationalist movement called “Zionism” You cannot be a little bit pregnant, nor can one be a little bit Zionist because of the founding principles of Zionism.. Using your argument above, I could say to you that there are some lovely nice members of the KKK who want to talk about their problems with Black people. But if they are already part of the KKK, then they have already proven what their core beliefs are and will remain. If that makes sense. It is far better for these “peace loving Zionists” you claim exist, to begin to examine why they have the need to cling to Zionist ideals, can they not be “Jewish” without them? Do they really and genuinely want the Palestinians to be equal and free living next to them? Or are they just wanting the peace that “they” envision, their kind of “peace” which may not be the same “peace” the rest of the world wants along with Palestine. That is the problem.
Having said that, I wish to compliment and agree with your views below:
You said:
“This is true and Israel has responsibility for Occupation and it is important that at the end of this conflict we have proud Palestinian nations resisted to external influence and manifest true Palestinian culture.
The violence of the resistance also is part of the conflict and we should recognize these acts as worriers for the freedom of their nation. “
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So we can agree on the above points of discussion.
Ban Sidhe, that was an EXCELLENT argument you made. This is how discourse should be, to present the holes in reasoning and to show that the rhetoric is empty when it is. Brava bravissima!
I would like to digress for one moment and that is to say I understand where Neri Bar On is coming from. He apparently is very tied into his Management Training Spiral Dynamics Integral, that he peddles at every possible chance. What is this thing, you may ask? I didn't know, so I looked it up. It's just another one of those ways to help managers con their workers into being better workers through use of psychology. It is a management system, nothing more, nothing less, but it pretends to be applicable to all of life and even to the Palestinian Israeli situation. The SDi people avoid "isms" (as labels) but forget that they actually exist because categorically speaking, we are animals of the verb and we classify. Isms are part of this, but SDi people try to act like they are on a level above that (They believe also in certain ideas of Ubermenschen).
Now, what does the guru Beck say? From his own words: (and I will state my critiques in parenthesis)-
What if Jerusalem were designed as the “First Global City” with guarantees for the sanctity of the holy places, and as a transcendent purpose that could instill pride in the hearts of the youth?
(What if he realises that Jerusalem is a Palestinian city that had a numerous Jewish, Christian and Armenian presence and that it isn't going to rise above being a Palestinian city and become some Global City. Why not realise Jerusalemites are being expelled by Jewish people day after day so that Jews can claim that land).
What if Israel were to become the legitimate Hong Kong of the Middle East, a powerful growth engine for the entire region?
(What if he realises that Hong Kong is specific to its own history. Israeli is an Arab country located in the heart of the Arab world. It has been throughout its history full of a rich cultural and agricultural experience, lovely villages razed to the ground so that Jews could claim it as their own and then to make it into a Hong Kong of the Middle East and make sure other Arabs in the area had to come on bended knee if they wanted to "compete". I realise this Beck is an Ubercapitalist, but this is going too far).
What if the outcast Palestinian populations that have been thrown out from Arab states, were to experience a transformation of the soul, thus becoming a model for others in the region?
(THROWN OUT FROM ARAB STATES? Sorry Beck… they were thrown out of their OWN STATE by Israeli Jews!) Their souls are far more clean and pure than those who are oppressing them and robbing them of their own history and freedom.
Too often the collective anger reinforces the self-fulfilled prophecies of doom and gloom.
(If you were robbed of life, freedom, belongings, heritage and future, you too would be anger, and if many are angry, it is a collective anger. Paletinians did not bring this upon themselves.)
We wish to refocus the emotions of anger, wrath, revenge, and resentment into the passions of progress, mutual support, and spiritual enhancement.
(Israelis want Palestinians to give up their human emotions regarding the injustice they are undergoing. How comfortable is that?! The Palestinians want to live their own lives. Israelis are preventing this with the help of those who support them).
We hope to shift the focus from the blame and be blamed game,
(Neri shop talk here). What is blame, though? If someone kills his child, how does he react? He finds the guilty party and he seeks justice for that deed. It is not "blaming" it is seeking redress and justice for the life of his precious child that was violated. Blame Game rhymes, so Beck thinks he is onto something, and Neri, like an idiot, repeats it as if it is meaningful!
through the live and let live isolation, and into a thrive and help thrive synergy to demonstrate the human spirit at its zenith.
(Israelis want to keep Palestinians as cheap labour, so yes, I can see them wanting to have some of them still be around so that together Israel can become Hong Kong).
And, we wish to expose the demagogues, shed light on the insidious and corruptive agendas of selfish domination and blackmail, and shame those who sell out to the Machiavellian forces of manipulation and greed.
(Speaks in "we" and listen to that rhetoric! Surely he thinks that Palestinians are driven by greed. But Ubercapitalists think in those terms. We soon come to the cluo!)
And, children who have been enticed by their elders to walk into the Valley of Death with explosives around their waist should be primed to climb up to the City on the Hill, with hope in their hearts.
(Palestinian adults corrupting their children to walk into the valley of death with explosive belts! He doesn't seem to mention that Israelis send theirs into F16s where their lives are spared, and where they damage everything and everyone for miles around, especially any chances of hope that the children they bomb will have for a different future. This is a sick man, and now we know where Neri Bar On gets his rhetoric. It's his job!)
jewnazi baron:
“This is true and Israel has responsibility for Occupation and it is important that at the end of this conflict we have proud Palestinian nations resisted to external influence and manifest true Palestinian culture.
The violence of the resistance also is part of the conflict and we should recognize these acts as worriers for the freedom of their nation. “
Typical jewnazi medacious blather!…
by the way, can you please try to refrain from calling everyone who's a zionist at any level a jewnazi? It's not serving any purpose.
Mary,
you are magic.
Why do I need my self to know who I am, there this italian Jew who know all … lets all obay her commands and have a better world.
Thanks Mary, I already took of my shoes and enjoying your lovely punch (pun intended). My family calls me naive- basically they don't want to admit to themselves that I'm an Arab lover. We square it off by me calling myself anti-Semite and everybody's happy
I'm hoping to be an x-Israeli myself, but it doesn't seem realistic at the moment. I'll tell you one thing- it would help with the nightmares about the Shabak coming to get me.
I went into the MePeace thing a little deeper, and yeah- it's more about Me than Peace and quite frankly, Neri- you're a racist and appearently you don't realize it. (Maybe Labor is your party? I do apologize, I love a good guessing game) Your justifications for war, as Mary points out, are simply an illogical fallacy and furthermore, it seems that you will admit to the Nakba, but not to your part in it. By the way, what's that pro-settlements guy doing there? Settlements are illegal and the other root cause of Palestinian suffering. That's not much for peace- whatever that means. An empty word. These people don't want "peace" "freedom", they want their house back, their children alive and well and a job. You can derive other big ideas from that. Neri, allow me to suggest, stop watching the mainstream media, it's doing nothing to further your cause. On top of that, may I suggest you read some serious scholars on the subject of repression. It may bring you closer to your aim of peace.
Ban, Beautiful! I was trying to articulate it (on two different posts, because it seems Neri was really active in disseminating this little original meme) and could do nothing but quote. I'm humbled by your eloquence, obviously I'll have to learn from you.
@Tali –
Tali
If you are Israeli – check "Israelis who seek bringing change this is your moment to act. recognize the Nakba"
http://www.mepeace.org/forum/topics/israelis-who-seek-bringing
Tali,
It is grate to want to be x-israeli I lived with that wish many years. what come out of it? That Israel continued the Naqba; and your whole family and friends are Israelis.
So you can write here and there, and blame the Zionists, your parents and the whole world but you do not do what you need to do as some one who is intelligent and know to express herself.
Israelis who seek bringing change this is your moment to act. recognize the Nakba
let work together to bring this message out to the Israeli audience:
reacting recently Lieberman's party proposes ban on Arab Nakba
The Nakba is here, started in 48 and it continue till this day. Nakba end is most important for us as humans, we as Israelis are involved in this national crisis of the Arabs in Palestine, people who lived on this land that we live called home to the place we live today. people who are our neighbors and hopefully brothers in building 3rd millennium future, we cannot accept denial of what happened to them as we know our history well.
I can contact the guys from Zuchrot and other groups and make sure the Israel have a law rto remember the Nakba.
any how , think big. reality is complex and things need to be done.
to me, it is seldom, if ever, waste of time to attempt to or actually expose/refute lies. I often do it on DV. Not, of course, to teach a 'zionist' [a better term wld be land robber] but new and undicided readers.
and the land robbers, whether it be amers, russians, chinese, brits, italians use the same or similar linguistic schemes in order to justify their respective crimes.
ommission of salient facts is always used; peripheral facts or nonfacts is preferred, instead.
anent 'zionistic' land robbery with intent to murder, tsunamis are either ommited or 'justified' on nonfacts, wishes, anger, etc.
dwelling on pal'n ripples is always a must. Exposing their faults, real or perceived or even wished for, is always there.
But partition of a land by partitioners who did not own it, is always justified or not said as i have said just now. My description being true, it cannot be refuted.
a caveat about my english. I try to write english as it was spoken, but not pronounced the same as now, that my wife can understand.
the one that asks, What's zionism? Rome, where is that? etc. One more caveat! I am not blaming my wife but her miseducators!
unlike some people i try never to blame the victims. 97% of world pop evaluates lies and misteachings by clero-political-educational class of life as factual.
in short, in much of the world, people are victimised. And if one blames; let's say, amers, for rejecting for self healthcare, free higher education { not one imposed by liars but also by low[er] classes} peace, etc., one is supporting the 'creme de la creme'.
all land robbers do ad perpetuum just this. So do 'jews'. They too always blame the victims! tnx
Does it work, am I baned ?
I sent few messages but did not see them published.
but Tali and bozh remarks do publish.
you probably have some technical problem.
Tali,
What do you do for the change, beside seeting at omer on Beduin land and cry that it is wrong. Do your x-israeli identity free you for drawing pin ups – american culture that Mary so love?
seek bringing change this is your moment to act. help Israel to recognize the Nakba
but you do nothing blaming every one and do nothing exacly like all other left left Israelis.
The Nakba is here, stared in 48 and it continue without end, we as Israelis are involved in this national crisis of the Arabs in Palestine, people who lived in this land that we live in their parents called home. people who are our neighbors and hopefully brothers in building 3rd millennium future, we cannot accept denial of what happened to them as we know our history well.
You have graphic and verbal talent, can you help to bring this message to the israel media? do you dare to care?
The last Gaza events may not be last. Hamas inability to accept Fatah dominance in managing the issue of the Palestinian nation can bring Israel to another assault. against the Gazans. this is were Lieberman's party influence danger real life.
if we care for the Gazan people we need to think how can we contribute to the change in Palestine, as for the palestinian perspective there is no doubt that this is an Israel voice now in power in the government, any accepting of Israel is accepting this voice.
do you wish to have effect?
I can only answer once when I give new email and then blocked again.
I am sorry I cannot response to all the remarks.
this is not the 1st time this happened, but marry always claim to be innocent ….
@Mary
Mary Said:
“Israelis want Palestinians to give up their human emotions regarding the injustice they are undergoing”
“Palestinian adults corrupting their children to walk into the valley of death with explosive belts! He doesn't seem to mention that Israelis send theirs into F16s where their lives are spared, and where they damage everything and everyone for miles around, especially any chances of hope that the children they bomb will have for a different future.”
Spot on Mary, this is the crux of the matter. Even if I truly believed that the state of Israel really wanted peace, they would still have to face their big fear of which I wrote above. Which, if you think about it, is totally “unverifiable” to Israel. This is the conundrum of those who gain power and control over others. Part of me wants to think that perhaps Obama will “do the deed” in the Middle East with Israel and Palestine. Force Israel to make peace and return land. I think Israel now realises the game has changed and they no longer have “carte Blanche” with Washington as before. This is making them ever more paranoid, because they themselves know only too well, even though they may never openly speak of it, exactly what the have done for many years to Palestinians. And because they “know” they are fearful of the Palestinians seeking some sort of retribution when they are freed. This was my point. When you have been evil and in control and are then faced with loosing that control and then having to face equally those you mistreated. Well, that is sobering. Hence the comments Neri wrote which I replied to above. Although you said it in one line LOL, we Irish talk a lot LOL.
If I could say one simple thing to Israelis, it would be this: During our struggle in the North of Ireland, there came a point where the British soldiers fired on protesters during a peaceful march. That day changed everything. That day is known as Bloody Sunday. Until then, the numbers within the IRA were fairly small. After that day people of all ages were lining up to join and fight the British. Additionally, every single Catholic home quietly supported them, looked the other way and kept their mouths shut to help the IRA. I can tell you that about 98% of people I know were jailed at some time or another by England for resisting and fighting back. This is what Israel creates, a new resistance fighter every single time it kidnaps, kills, abuses, tortures, beats, jails, steals land from and homes from a Palestinian. Some will wish to take up arms; some will support the resistance in other ways. But they will resist until they are free and equal.
What Israel has to realise, is that just like us, we wanted our freedom and equality, we did not think about doing to them, what they did to us, when they had all the power. But, that is what THEY thought because of what they knew they had done to us. When people are free and equal they will put their focus elsewhere, they will turn to building and running their country, which is what free men do.
@Tali –
Tali said:
Ban, Beautiful! I was trying to articulate it (on two different posts, because it seems Neri was really active in disseminating this little original meme) and could do nothing but quote. I'm humbled by your eloquence, obviously I'll have to learn from you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tali, Mo Chara (Means Friend in Irish)
I write like this because I have been a “Palestinian” not in body in Palestine, but in soul in Ireland. So much is the same, when I see Palestine, I see Ireland. When I see a Palestinian, I see an Irishman. When I see villages in Gaza, I see West Belfast or Creggan in Derry. When I see the face of a Palestinian child, I recognize what I see in their eyes and souls. They are saying to the world “You will never break me, I exist, I am here, I am proud and I am Palestine!”
I am reminded of a story I was told years back about some little Palestinian girls in a refugee camp in Lebanon. It was around the 10th anniversary of the Irish Hunger strike where 10 men died fighting for freedom. A family friend had been doing some work in a refugee camp. She only spoke English but had been attempting to learn a little Arabic so as to help with her work. One day as she was watching a group of young girls playing some skipping game, like hopscotch or something like it, she couldn’t help but notice that they were singing some rhyme, over and over again as they skipped. She moved closer to see if she could figure out what they were saying. At first it was difficult, due to the accents of the little girls, but soon she began to realize what they were saying and it came as a surprise. These little girls, only aged ten or so, who had not even been born or were mere babies during the Irish Hunger Strike, were, repeating the names of EACH hungerstriker, over and over again. “ Bobby Sands, Francis Hughes, Raymond McCreesh, Patsy O’Hara, Joe McDonnell, Martin Huson, Kevin Lynch, Kieran Doherty, Thomas McIlwee, Michal Devine “
So, all the way across the world, in another oppressed country, people can be inextricably linked through common struggles. Below are some quotes from our most famous Irish Hunger striker, Bobby Sands, who wrote prolifically in prison whilst waiting to die. I have removed the words “Irish and Ireland” and inserted the words “Palestine and Palestinian” see what you notice……….
“I believe and stand by the God-given right of the (Palestinian) nation to sovereign independence, and the right of any (Palestinian )to assert this right in armed revolution. That is why I am incarcerated, naked and tortured.
Foremost in my tortured mind is the thought that there can never be peace in (Palestine) until the foreign, oppressive (Israeli) presence is removed, leaving all the (Palestinian) people as a unit to control their own affairs and determine their own destinies as a sovereign people, free in mind and body, separate and distinct physically, culturally and economically.
I believe I am but another of those wretched (Palestinians) born of a risen generation with a deeply rooted and unquenchable desire for freedom. I am dying not just to attempt to end the barbarity of H-Block, or to gain the rightful recognition of a political prisoner, but primarily because what is lost in here is lost for (Palestine) and those wretched oppressed whom I am deeply proud to know as the 'risen people'. “
Tali, So you see, we have much in common with Palestine. The “Risen” people, THAT is what we are, and THAT is what they are. They rise up against tanks with stones and refuse to be oppressed and beaten, just like we did in the in Ireland. So, Ireland and Palestine are inextricably linked, through the struggle for freedom and oppression. And that is why those little girls knew every one of those names.
One last Quote from Bobby Sands, think “Palestine”:
“If they aren't able to destroy the desire for freedom, they won't break you. They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the “Palestinian” people, is in my heart. The day will dawn when all the people of “Palestine” will have the desire for freedom to show.
It is then we'll see the rising of the moon.
Tali Shapiro,
I do not know if Mary rizzo disabled my ability to answer or there is technical problem, but you can read my answer here.
What do you do for the change, beside seeting at omer on Beduin land and cry that it is wrong. Do your x-israeli identity free you for drawing pin ups – american culture that Mary so love?
seek bringing change this is your moment to act. help Israel to recognize the Nakba
but you do nothing blaming every one and do nothing exacly like all other left left Israelis.
The Nakba is here, stared in 48 and it continue without end, we as Israelis are involved in this national crisis of the Arabs in Palestine, people who lived in this land that we live in their parents called home. people who are our neighbors and hopefully brothers in building 3rd millennium future, we cannot accept denial of what happened to them as we know our history well.
You have graphic and verbal talent, can you help to bring this message to the israel media? do you dare to care?
The last Gaza events may not be last. Hamas inability to accept Fatah dominance in managing the issue of the Palestinian nation can bring Israel to another assault. against the Gazans. this is were Lieberman's party influence danger real life.
if we care for the Gazan people we need to think how can we contribute to the change in Palestine, as for the palestinian perspective there is no doubt that this is an Israel voice now in power in the government, any accepting of Israel is accepting this voice.
do you wish to have effect?
Originally Posted By Tali
I went into the MePeace thing a little deeper, and yeah- it's more about Me than Peace and quite frankly, Neri- you're a racist and appearently you don't realize it. (Maybe Labor is your party? I do apologize, I love a good guessing game) Your justifications for war, as Mary points out, are simply an illogical fallacy and furthermore, it seems that you will admit to the Nakba, but not to your part in it. By the way, what's that pro-settlements guy doing there? Settlements are illegal and the other root cause of Palestinian suffering. That's not much for peace- whatever that means. An empty word. These people don't want "peace" "freedom", they want their house back, their children alive and well and a job. You can derive other big ideas from that. Neri, allow me to suggest, stop watching the mainstream media, it's doing nothing to further your cause. On top of that, may I suggest you read some serious scholars on the subject of repression. It may bring you closer to your aim of peace.
@Ban Sidhe – See Ban, that's why I can't speak like you. I distinctly remember my "roots voyage" to Poland (Israeli high school seniors can choose to go visit all the best sites, Auschwitz , Meidanek, and Treblinka). While Moroccan Jews were realizing how "small" and "vulnerable" and "surrounded by enemies" Israel is (which means they must defend it), I was realizing that something was off (I wouldn't comprehend this until the recent onslaught on Gaza). I remember walking in one of the Auschwitz halls, where pictures of the woman prisoners tapestrated the wall. Their heads were roughly shaved, they had the striped pajamas on and they looked as any human being would look under the circumstances- miserable and identical. And as I looked at these wretched souls I realized one thing: Those are not my roots. What do I know about the brink of death, the constant threat of death, humiliation, starvation? Nothing. Those are not my roots, that is not my heritage and I’m dispossessed with a home.
I don’t share the Palestinian’s pain- I know nothing of it. I hope I never do and I hope they’ll be as privileged as I, to find that home ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.
That said, can you recommend a good book on the Irish struggle? I know next to nothing about it, but after your description, I think I might need to acquaint myself with it.
@Tali – Tali, I just want to say that I think you're VERY optimistic in thinking that there are 15.000 Jews who really want equality… I think that there are less. I've rarely met an Israeli Jewish peace activist who sees and admits the WHOLE story – I'm often amazed and shocked about people who tell me "I'm in Ni'lin every Friday, I'm against the Occupation, but I'm a Zionist.." (heard at the last "mepeace"-meeting) – or: "I'm against the Wall, I'm against the Occupation, but Gaza is different…" – wow!! The thing with Israeli Jewish "left-wingers" and/or activists is that there is (almost) always a "but.."…
To me 15.000 seems to be a huge number – it's difficult to say how many there are, but in my opinion there are much fewer people who don't have a "but" in their mind…
@Mary Rizzo – It's really amazing. Eyal Raviv never answers questions – and no one knows where the money goes…
@Mary Rizzo – As Mazin said on mepeace, the only good thing there is that some people can meet and get to know each other. I met Mazin and many others through mepeace. Btw. a few month ago Eyal invited me again (God knows WHY) and although I really tried not to reply "too aggressively", he soon found an amazingly ridiculous excuse to ban me again
— and also by the way – I don't remember where on this tread I read it, but I met Mazin yesterday at Bir Zeit and he told me that he's considering leaving mepeace, as it doesn't lead anywhere and it's too much of a waste of time. I don't know if he'll do it, we agreed that we succeeded do achieve a few little things – but all in all writing there is really a waste of time, as they don't accept even the smallest bit of truth.
@Tali –
Dear Tali,
Long post here;)Thank you again for your comments. I read with interest your story of visiting the scenes of the holocaust. I think you are a wonderful person to be humanly capable of placing yourself into the shoes of another person, in this case the Palestinians as you explained in your post. It is never easy to look at your own people and what they have done, but it is a starting point. You said this:
“And as I looked at these wretched souls I realized one thing: Those are not my roots. What do I know about the brink of death, the constant threat of death, humiliation, starvation? Nothing. Those are not my roots, that is not my heritage and I’m dispossessed with a home. I don’t share the Palestinian’s pain- I know nothing of it. “
>>>>>>>>>>>Two things:
Firstly, you do not need to be able to “feel Their Pain” you cannot feel their pain for those same reasons you outlined. Your life experience has not allowed you to live under oppression and as such you cannot really feel the pain. BUT, you can imagine it and you know that it is wrong. THAT is what is important Tali, that you know in your heart what you are seeing is morally wrong. So well done to you Tali.
Secondly, I can read in your words the outrage you have over the plight of the Palestinians, and it must be even harder for you because you are Jewish. But, I believe people can be Jewish and care for Palestine, do the right thing like yourself, Mary and so many other Jews I have come across online who break the mold. I am not saying this as well as I would like to, but everyone’s history and past should remain important to them, even the awful parts as well.
This will come as a shock to you and others perhaps, what I am trying to say is I wish you to think about what you said about the holocaust. It is true that in your present life you cannot relate to what took place. And knowing your politics from your writings, I know you see the injustice Israel has visited on Palestine and the wrong use of the “holocaust” by the Israeli government and Zionists in order to create some ultra nationalist Jewish state. But think about this. You can no more un-link from the holocaust, than I can un-link from the Great Hunger, when millions of Irish died from starvation. Today I am well fed and relatively happy, I know nothing of starving, nor the coffin ships crossing from Ireland to America where many died on board of disease or starvation whilst England grew fat on Irish crops. However, it is my past, it is part of me and it has also, to some degree, made me who I am today. It has unknowingly shaped my views on life because it exists in my subconscious, if that makes sense. Just as unknown to you the holocaust has helped to shape your views today. Don’t let Zionists who use the holocaust as a political football, or to censor, separate and attack people, take away that part of your past from your being, or worse make you ashamed of it. You can remember it, you can be proud your ancestors survived it and that you are here today because of that.
Remembering the holocaust and having it be a sacred part of your life is not a dirty thing; it only becomes dirty and vile when people use their suffering as a means to get away with crimes against others. Or when people somehow believe that their suffering is more important than someone else’s. In Ireland our population was halved three times in history, so we have had three holocausts if you like. The difference is that we have never used this to beat over the heads of other people, or to deflect to, when we do wrong. That is the difference. Instead we have used it to better understand and have compassion for others who have suffered. The problem is not that the holocaust happened, the problem is what it has come to represent and how it has been used by Zionists. I remember after 9-11 the entire world felt for America, never before had there been this much outpouring. I remember seeing videos of Iranians on the streets of Tehran, thousands of them, men AND women with headscarves and makeup!! Crying uncontrollably for America, this, the very country that was laying sanctions and threats against theirs. What did Bush do with this world compassion, did he use it to better the world, to make peace, to create and nurture a shared understanding that there must be a better way for all of us? No, he “used” it to attack others, to steal way rights from people. He squandered it all and made the world turn from compassion for America and Americans, to hatred. So what I am saying in a long winded way, is that perhaps the holocaust is partly responsible for making you what you are today, you have learned compassion from it I believe, and what better legacy to those who died than to go forward with compassion for others, a compassion that was never shown to them.
Also, here are living examples of what I said before in reply to Neri’s comments about the irrational fear Zionists have thinking that when Palestinians are free and equal they will do to the Zionists what the Zionists did to them.
First an example of the hatred THEY had for us in its most vile example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankill_Butchers
And this is what happened when WE became equal to them:
THEN:Martian Anderson IRA volunteer
http://www.tallgirlshorts.net/marymary/martina.html
NOW: Martina Anderson, Sinn Fein Assembly Member MLA and what is most shocking of all is the Martina works now to engage the Loyalist/Unionist community to build bridges, imagine that!
http://www.sinnfeinassembly.com/en/assembly-members/entry/5
THEN:Raymond McCartney, IRA member, former Blanketman and Hungerstriker, there is a mural of Raymond on hungerstrike on a building pictured in this article below: http://irelandsown.net/mccartney.html
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_McCartney
NOW: Raymond McCartney MLA
http://www.sinnfein.ie/elections/candidate/256
THEN: Martin McGuinness
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_McGuinness#Provisional_IRA_activity
NOW: Martin McGuinness Deputy First Minister of the Assembly:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/martin-mcguinness-peacemaker-and-poet-447628.html
Israel should learn this: People just want to be free and equal, when they have that, they move forward
And lastly you said:
“That said, can you recommend a good book on the Irish struggle? I know next to nothing about it, but after your description, I think I might need to acquaint myself with it. “
>>>>>>>>>>> Many of Bobby’s books are now out of print, but you can look around and find them once in a while. Here are some titles of his books and others along with a few links
Bobby Sands books:
“One Day In My Life”
“Writings from Prision”
The Hungerstrike books:
“Ten Men Dead”
Gerry Adams book:
“Gage Eleven”
Here are parts of his diary when in prison and on hungerstrike: http://larkspirit.com/hungerstrikes/diary.html And here http://larkspirit.com/hungerstrikes/
wow, mary. i feel so web 1.0. i'd never before heard of nings. i guess i'm glad someone keeps track of this stuff, i find it all a tad bewildering.
tali, for the irish struggle, i highly recommend ken loach's film, 'The wind that shakes the barley" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc61Cjmmbkg
@angus – Thanks Angus
that looks like it's well done.
Gilad and Mary – the only forum site I know of that had for example israelis, jewish, palestinians and arabs still posting is Shalom-Saalam.net. The types you describe (BZTW's for banal zio-time-wasters) appeared periodically, posted, got into arguments over facts (say pre-1948) and soon left huffing and puffing all the way. There were a couple of arabic firebands too, and it was absolutely amusing to see the reactions from the israeli leftists when their precious "red lines" were somehow crossed (and they always are – one doesn't even need to be an arab to cause a red-line-crossing international incident). To be fair, there were also afew intra-lebanese fire fights – and not between christians and muslims! now that was worth the price of admission. That forum has BTW some super-knowledgeable lebanese with the skin of elephants. Lebanese politics can do that, I suppose. Anyways, I learnt a lot.
Like many other such sites, relationships would form – sometimes among like-minded people but not necessarily. Just by staying and continuing to argue through thick and thin, it appears that people across great divides sometimes manage to forge bonds of mutual respect. Maybe it's just familiarity. May be it's that these are the thicker-skinned ones. Or the ones who simply like to cultivate unusual friendships (yes, this happens. I once knew an Apple employee who married a fine lady from Microsoft and they had a commuting marriage between silicon valley and seattle. Now how strange is that? I believe they have both cashed in and moved to Oregon or something where they grow organic produce. Don't know what computer their two kids/babies use). Anyways, I can see why Mary can't just abandon them all. She must have invested much in these interactions – and for better or for worse – it's not so easy to walk away.
The Sha-Sa forum (as the members refer to it) is still active though not as much as it once was. It survived almost falling apart during the gaza massacres, falling back on recipes etc. I am not, BTW, advertising it or anything (am sort of scarce myself, seeing how I have a blog to build up**). But the dynamics made for an interesting study in the evolving field on cyber-relations. Ran out of time, that's all.
Best of luck to both of you – keep it going!
______
* by popular request from those who've grown sick and tired of my interminable posts.
** another "peace" forum I noticed devolving into triteness is gnblog (good neighbours blog). Same type of story as the one told by mary. "let's talk and get to know each other" say the israeli peacenicks. Then the arabs/palestinians do. And then it's all over.
@Neri Bar-On – So the gloves are off Neri? Let's go:
"What do you do for the change, beside seeting at omer on Beduin land and cry that it is wrong. Do your x-israeli identity free you for drawing pin ups – american culture that Mary so love?"
First off, I'm an active blogger, who generates at least 2 articles a week about the situation, enabling the international community to see what's going on. Second, I speak with Palestinians and create on line projects to further our cause. Third, I go to protests and meetings, when it is possible. And when I finally get back to Tel Aviv, I can finally join in true activity with real activists.
And I don't have an x-Israeli identity, I'm here and have been all my life. Me hoping to leave shouldn't be that offensive to you. My love of the aesthetics of American culture has nothing to do with my disdain for it's politics and role in this atrocity. And try not to exemplify what Mary wrote about you, so well. I doubt you'll pit her against me, by mentioning what I do for a living- an open source on the internet.
"seek bringing change this is your moment to act. help Israel to recognize the Nakba
but you do nothing blaming every one and do nothing exacly like all other left left Israelis."
My moment to act has long surpassed. Israel doesn't want my help. I get hate mail from people who think I'm trying to help them. I'm not blaming, I'm writing up a prosecution- the things israel is doing are war crimes and crimes against humanity- LEGAL TERMS. Left left Israelis (gotta love it when a country is so far off to the right, you become a left left) do a lot more than you do. Go join the Anarchists Against the Wall and get shot with rubber coated bullets a few times. Then talk to me about doing whatever.
"The Nakba is here, stared in 48 and it continue without end, we as Israelis are involved in this national crisis of the Arabs in Palestine, people who lived in this land that we live in their parents called home. people who are our neighbors and hopefully brothers in building 3rd millennium future, we cannot accept denial of what happened to them as we know our history well."
That's right- we can't accept denial, so I want to see Olmert. Livni, Barak prosecuted for Gaza (that's just one example). I want to see the right of return, I want to see that Palestinians are compensated. And I want another building in Yad Vashem, that commemorates every soul we took.
"You have graphic and verbal talent, can you help to bring this message to the israel media? do you dare to care?"
You're kidding right?
"The last Gaza events may not be last. Hamas inability to accept Fatah dominance in managing the issue of the Palestinian nation can bring Israel to another assault. against the Gazans. this is were Lieberman's party influence danger real life."
Hamas' inability to accept Fatah is none of my fucking business. And it's not Israel's business- you will not bring democracy at the barral of a gun. Let the people handle their own democracy- that's what it means. Lieberman is mostly a danger to Israeli Palestinians. Right now, we got Ehud Barak to worry about.
"if we care for the Gazan people we need to think how can we contribute to the change in Palestine, as for the palestinian perspective there is no doubt that this is an Israel voice now in power in the government, any accepting of Israel is accepting this voice."
accepting Israel? You mean Netanyahu's "recognizing Israel as a Jewish state"? You are aware that's a ploy to hold off peace negotiations, right? And we have no business changing Palestine. They are their own sovereigns. They will do as they please and vote as they please. And last time I checked all they wanted to do was live.
"do you wish to have effect?"
Do you? Or do you wish to sit here and tell the Palestinians what to do in order to win your affections, so you may kindly take mercy on them?
@Eva Ferrero – You're probably right, but I personally know a few, so please allow me to dream..
Eva,
It is grate to see you here, Mary probably happy that you joined.
In mepeace you write "your truth" but from what you say you expec to educate us. instead we are looking for multi-political discussion to combine our different truths.
Sadly, Mary and you never understood that and you thought that if we do not agree with you we are some kind of Nazis and Racist who ignore the truth.
for working together you need flexibility, you and Mary never show that attribute. see how Mary prefer sites that only "like minded" come and say to each other "you are so right" "that is so true" etc. Booring don't you think?
@Neri Bar-On –
Dear Taly,
you are very proud with your doing ; getting a rubber bullet was probably a pleasure. and express your emotions towards the Palestinian condition make you feel good.
But the Nakba continue, and you are now waiting with Mary for Gaza2 to come on the Palestinian so you will have some more dead palestinian to celebrate your blame. some more "international crimes".
I want too to see that Palestinians are compensated. And I want another building in Yad Vashem, that commemorates every soul we took.
for that we need to work from the inside and not from the outside; but you think of yourself as better then evryone – and you probably did not spend enough time with Mary – Eva can tell you how it is like.
Enjoy yuor time, watch the Palestinian die and think to yourself "I am good – I love Arabs"
There is much which need to chaneg, within israel and within Palestine and no international court can do that for us. it is us the Israelis who need to chaneg, it is us the palestinians who need to change and think practically how we can stop the Nakba and enable the Palestinian to build modern National state.
I guess you know Palestinians as I do, so you can recognize that these people are going to shift the whole arab world when they are out of occupation. the know the Arab world from within and can contribute to its development. There are many reasons to close the conflict and have equal palestinian state sharing one futue with ISrael.
Tali,
some how all my answer are deleted,
sorry I cannot answer you
Neri, you amaze me. You act as if you are the host here. You are not. Furthermore, like anyone else, sometimes your posts take a while to appear, if they do appear. When I am not in town, Haitham and Gilad don't know that it would depend on them to moderate comments so things sit there.
I might respond to the rest of your stuff later. Seems you avoid the things the rest of us are interested in. Why not start with your Beck. He believes it was Arabs who expelled Palestinians. What do you have to say about his claim?
“Dear Taly,”
Please don’t call me that, it’s condescending and sexist, in the context of our conversation. And it’s also a lie, because I doubt you feel I’m dear to you in anyway, if you did, you wouldn’t go out of your way with slander.
“you are very proud with your doing ; getting a rubber bullet was probably a pleasure. and express your emotions towards the Palestinian condition make you feel good.”
I never said I got a rubber bullet, and I doubt the anarchists found it pleasurable (although it may have provided them a source of survivor pride, you never know). And yes, to put it in your oversimplified terms: I do this to feel good, anything else would make me feel bad.
“But the Nakba continue, and you are now waiting with Mary for Gaza2 to come on the Palestinian so you will have some more dead palestinian to celebrate your blame. some more "international crimes".”
Yeah, I’m dying to see more babies with holes in them. What’s the matter with you?
And yes these are international crimes (without quotes- I thought we don’t need denial…), and quite frankly we don’t need more babies to prosecute, we got settlements and prisoners (many minors) of another sovereignty, demolitions, and one hell of a concrete-evidence wall.
“I want too to see that Palestinians are compensated. And I want another building in Yad Vashem, that commemorates every soul we took.
for that we need to work from the inside and not from the outside; but you think of yourself as better then evryone – and you probably did not spend enough time with Mary – Eva can tell you how it is like.”
What’s the inside? Inside the israeli community of pacifists? Does that include Palestinians? Exactly what kind of action are you proposing?
What have I said that would make you think I think I’m better than anyone? Is it because I don’t agree that MePeace is pacifist. Is it because I think you’re too full of fear and mistrust to be a pacifist? I’m sorry, I call’em like I see’em. If I’m such a lowly human being as you describe, why do you care what I think, any way.
“Enjoy yuor time, watch the Palestinian die and think to yourself "I am good – I love Arabs"”
Right back at ya.
“There is much which need to chaneg, within israel and within Palestine and no international court can do that for us. it is us the Israelis who need to chaneg, it is us the palestinians who need to change and think practically how we can stop the Nakba and enable the Palestinian to build modern National state.”
You know, about the holocaust we all screamed, “the world knew and did nothing”. But in the Palestinians case, it’s not the UN’s business. That’s tough for me to reconcile with.
What’s a “national state”? Here’s a few changes I propose on our side (seeing as I have no right to tell the Palestinians what to do):
* We need to stop educating our children, in our schools, that there was no Nakba, that Israel is shaped like a diamond on the map, and that we’re a peace loving nation (that’s what my teachers told me).
We need to have an unbiased media that omits so much information, it’s a wonder they have anything to report at all.
We should make sure all our major war criminals are prosecuted.
We should give Palestinian Israelis equal rights and stop demonizing their parliament representatives.
That’s a great start.
“I guess you know Palestinians as I do, so you can recognize that these people are going to shift the whole arab world when they are out of occupation. the know the Arab world from within and can contribute to its development. There are many reasons to close the conflict and have equal palestinian state sharing one futue with ISrael. “
You know what, this tactic is really boring. You don’t have to reiterate things that people here all obviously agree on. And really, I don’t get what your obsession is with “developing” “the Arab world”.
as an aside:
islam, christianity, and judaism propagate cult of personality as well as the cult of mythical personalities.
mahdi, jesus, and moshiach are airy/eerie 'saviors' who will wash clean guilt of the adherents of the three cults,
and as issaiah says: Come, let us reason together, sayeth the lord; tho your sins be as red as crimson they shall be as white as wool….
in short, cults teach the cultists that no matter what their crimes be, mahdi, jesus, and messiah wld make them go away and they will be rewarded for being faithful to their respective 'gods'.
and on most of the sites, most posters avoid to note how vitiating are the three cults commonly called religions.
but i affirm that whoever leaves cults out of one's anlyses of what is going on our planet, one is presenting a fictitious reality. And no one can adapt to a fiction; one can adapt only to reality! tnx
but to me, in order to earn the label "religion", it must not only tolerate other religions but also gladhand them.
if not, one is dealing with extremely perilous and unsane people. And they are destined to quarrel or kill each other for an eternity or until a comet strikes us dead. tnx
@Tali –
Tali you dear to me. I am here to talk, not to blame or fight, because I see the truth of your position, I was there as well. But I wish you to see some of the more complex truth of how to create change.
we have knowledge that is not Jewish, it universal knowledge we can share with the palestinians. we can work together to build the only one possible future – that include all of us, from the refugees in Lebanon to the settler of Hebron. the international legal system do not have the power to influence Israel who is sure that the Arabs want its destruction.
The Israelis are not capable to accept the blame you express. and I think you can see that too.
Let's get this straight, Neri: you think you have the right to set the rules wherever you go. You claim you came here to talk. Yes. You are interested in doing all the talking, you still write such defamatory crap about me on MePeace, still convinced you are pure as snow and that my "banning" was me "asking for it" and you were thrilled about it, it was your goal… so what do you do? You stalk me on my sites and on the other Ning I belong to, and it doesn't stop with me, it carries on to many others.
You have severe problems, Neri, the first of which is a total incapacity to address ANY of the points people make but to react in your same stereotypical way so that you maintain "the Alpha Male" position. Funny, you simply can't see it, although dozens of others do. You have no intention of addressing ANY of my points, not a single one, but ram out your sales mantra over and over again along with your other wishy washy talk that no one can comprehend because it is vapour, without any substance and with the typical lack of introspection or analysis. You sound like a robot, programmed. It is almost amazing that anyone takes what you say seriously, if they do at all.
You try to act like you come in peace, but you sling abuse left and right as well as putting words in people's mouths. Until you start to respond to the content of our posts, and you better start with mine, you are not at all welcome here and as before, your IP will be suspended. I have better things to do than to waste my time with a hypocritical stalker, so make up your mind how to intervene, because my patience is running out. This is not your place to command, and you are not going to be permitted to bother people forever. You call Palestinian Mothers "slimey" so we know where you are coming from. You have no respect for Palestinians and you give lip service to their supporters. You hate it that many of us have your game figured out! You probably had a lot invested in getting adepts for your cult.
@Dana –
Interesting views, Dana. The reason I even joined MePeace was because I got an invite from Wael, a friend in real life. I figured, if Wael was there, it was going to be decent enough. It did not take more than a dozen posts for the first signs to start: the zionists were familiar with me and started demonising me and my connections with my closest affiliate, which is Gilad. Then after that, I posted a petition for the lifting of movement restrictions on Khalid Amayreh, and NOT ONE ISRAELI wanted to be involved. They started to smear him (neri included) and from then on, it was just all the little signals pointed out in my main post, the tricks were unfolding one after the other, and I decided I was going to stick it out, but since I tell things like they are, I said, forcing "loyalty" to this board is wrong. I questioned the TOTAL lack of support even from the few Palestinians involved. On several occasions, I defended those attacked, Including Eva who has posted here. Very rarely were people willing or able to defend me, and one "allegedly" Palestinian woman, when I sent her a private message asking why, published it publicly, including a lengthy response that everyone was for themselves, and that she did not have to represent Palestinans, and she worked hard to build bridges and all other kinds of stuff. Very weird, it does make red flags fly up, doesn't it. Then you see more and more creepy things, like the Moonies connection, the requests CONSTANTLY for money or for participation in some little thing or other (very non-commital, all very feel-good, and ALL with normalisation and equation of justice with war-cries) makes it seem even more sinister. I told them I did not approve of the way things worked, of the ostacism of Palestine advocates, of the insults and games and sneaky stuff such as posting things about people when they were unable to respond in defence of themselves. All of is was just totally creepy. They found their pretext to "ban" me and Neri thinks I wanted "in" because of the traffic (!??? They get next to nothing, and it must be the same 10 to 20 people who post, 90% of them Zionists) or because of the "quality" of the people. This is how deluded they are.
I am glad to expose it and do it as a service.
I unfortunately have made no real friends there. Eva and I shared a delightful friendship for a while, but it was ruined when she thought it was wrong of me to protest that there was a "peace conference" with Shimon Peres as the keynote speaker. Then she too made insinuations about my friends and this is not something that allowed me to feel bonded to her. I have met a few others, but as I mentioned on Palestinian Mothers, several had insisted that I maintain contact with them outside of forums, they wanted to call, to know me in other circumstances, two wanted to visit me, but I feel that if they were unable to be supportive of me in public, I have no interest in knowing them at any level. So, my "use" of those sites is restricted to Palestinian Mothers, where I feel comfortable and at home, and for any other site, simply to understand its mechanisms and see if they are helpful to the cause or not.
Dear Mary.
I do not write more then you write on me. if you think yuo will say "true" things on me so i cannot say "true" thing on you, you break fairness rule.
and I never set the rules. there are many here that comment and share their views. is a fairness rule is what I invented?
This is interesting and I'd like to address it:
Neri wrote: (I put in parenthesis)
Eva,
It is grate to see you here, Mary probably happy that you joined.
(why is it "grate" to see people you were happy to have banished? Proudly working towards that? Are you the host here? No one "joins" this site, people participate, and what makes you feel you know what people think or feel? I personally do not mind that she wrote, it means she read what I wrote. I would have liked for her to have commented on that relevant segment, but I can't ask for everything).
NERI: In mepeace you write "your truth" but from what you say you expec to educate us. instead we are looking for multi-political discussion to combine our different truths.
(Yes, people need to be educated. What is wrong with that. If you are presenting falsehoods, it is up to others to expose them. We can't change YOU; but we can set the record straight for those who aren't loaded with your agenda of lies, because you KNOW they are lies, Neri Bar-on who pretends he doesn't live in land taken from Palestinians, who pretends that Mary and Gilad were glad that Palestinians were being killed by Israelis, while in fact, NERI is the one whose army was doing it, not the army of Italy or the UK. MePeace seeks to control discussion, in fact, in that it succeeds. You say there are no gatekeepers, that is what a gatekeeper says!).
NERI: Sadly, Mary and you never understood that and you thought that if we do not agree with you we are some kind of Nazis and Racist who ignore the truth.
(you think you know it all. We didn't expect you to agree with us. However pointing out that JUSTICE is not a war cry but it is a need of Palestinians is too much for you to take, and silencing us is your response. You prefer to act as if we call you Nazis. I call you a blind gatekeeper. When did I ever call you or anyone on MePeace a Nazi? You make things up, but Neri "dear" I still have archived the accusation you made against me and later deleted. My lawyer told me to keep it handy because I might need it should I ever find my life endangered. You threatened me and I have it all on record and you know it too! This is yet another good thing to get a person cancelled off Ning. Unless they save and archive the things that they need, they could vanish at any given moment without warning or reason. Tell Eyal to write me with the reasons, justifications and evidence for his disciplinary action. This is why you have 2400 members but only 10 who actually participate. People see you, Paul, Yigal they run the opposite way!)
NERI: for working together you need flexibility, you and Mary never show that attribute. see how Mary prefer sites that only "like minded" come and say to each other "you are so right" "that is so true" etc. Booring don't you think?
(obviously! I want to work with those who share the same dedication towards the Palestinian people. I don't care about fake peace activists, in fact, they are there to waste our time.)
Originally Posted By Eva Ferrero@Mary Rizzo – As Mazin said on mepeace, the only good thing there is that some people can meet and get to know each other. I met Mazin and many others through mepeace. Btw. a few month ago Eyal invited me again (God knows WHY) and although I really tried not to reply "too aggressively", he soon found an amazingly ridiculous excuse to ban me again — and also by the way – I don't remember where on this tread I read it, but I met Mazin yesterday at Bir Zeit and he told me that he's considering leaving mepeace, as it doesn't lead anywhere and it's too much of a waste of time. I don't know if he'll do it, we agreed that we succeeded do achieve a few little things – but all in all writing there is really a waste of time, as they don't accept even the smallest bit of truth.
MARY: Eva, I admit I am surprised to see you here. It is a shame our friendship ended, but it was more important for you to defend the feelings of Aharoni, who was disturbed that an "international DARE question" her ultimate wisdom on the involvement of Peres in peace conferences. I didn't like the lack of loyalty, but then again, this is up to you how to react. At any rate, Mazin told me he thought it was a waste of time, I just hope he decides to archive the interactions he could use at some point. That Eyal invited you back is interesting. One of my friends told me about the site in the past few days since I posted this and it seems Neri was highly disturbed by it.. seems he feels threatened. My friend told me that since I left it's become even more of an echo chamber for Israelis. Mazin will not get much defence there either, so yes, he is spending his precious time in a bad way.
Reply – Quote
NERI: I do not write more then you write on me. if you think yuo will say "true" things on me so i cannot say "true" thing on you, you break fairness rule.
and I never set the rules. there are many here that comment and share their views. is a fairness rule is what I invented?
Mary: what does all of that mean? You don't answer ANY of my questions, but just lead things to somewhere totally off target. If you want to remain here, on my site, you start by answering the many questions in the comments or addressing the POINTS in my post, DEBATING THEM, proving them wrong. Any of that would be acceptable, but you just come out with phrases that are incomprehensible. What does I never set the rules mean? You act as if you expect a certain treatment, as if you deserve a platform when you are really just interested at controlling discourse wherever you go, then you talk about fairness?
So now you know my rules: respond point by point as to what is untrue about my post. If you can do that, you will be entitled to continue debating. In lieu of that, you may respond to my questions to you. if you refuse to do it, consider your IP to be blocked here sooner than you think. I believe this is fair, as you are writing and "smearing me and my 'ilk"" over at MePeace, knowing that I may not intervene. You know it is unorthodox, and i even pointed it out, but not only that, this is simply the way you operate, not respecting any kind of netiquette. So, ball's in your court, play it well or bye bye.
This one is sweet: from Neri bar on- Mary,
you are magic.
Why do I need my self to know who I am, there this italian Jew who know all … lets all obay her commands and have a better world.
Cute, isn't it? Now, I'd like to say to anyone following this to take a careful look back, there is a valuable post by Ban, but since it had links in it, it was in the spam box, and only now did i get around to sorting through that. Neri's "lost" comments are also here in all their dubious glory.
have fun!
@Mary Rizzo – Mary, let sleeping Israelis lie (oh! Pun so unintended, but so happy it happened!). One look at that the MePeace forum and I knew I could meet those guys across the street if I wanted. These groups are not worth your time, or any other Palestinian that serves them only as a badge of honor. Israelis don’t want to know, even kind, compassionate people. Imagine opening a book and realizing you’re Eichmann- it’s not pleasant. I say to my friends, “I won’t force any information on you, you know my position, when you want to know, just ask.” It’s hard for us to come around, we receive years of relentless indoctrination. You’re sure you’re normal and that you have a normal life, one day you realize you’re in the hottest spot on the globe and you’re not the good guy. No one wants to know that. (for the record, you can’t afford to call us Nazis, I know, but I can- I know exactly how it was to be a German in ’39. Me? I'd be a White Rose
)
@Ban Sidhe – Thank you so much. I won't lie- I need soft words and I need them from the people who know that pain. I've gotten nothing but smiles since I joined Palestinian Mothers and just that was an incredibly human experience.
One thing- I'm an Atheist. I understand what you meant
I think for me, the beginning of understanding what was going on was those 10 days in Poland. They bring you there for a group cry- I resented it (I used to think I find solidarity disgusting, today I know that it's only specific types of solidarity). I got very angry, the teachers rile you up, they want you to cry. One of the most explicit moments for me was when one of the boys (Moroccan- don't ask what he's doing searching for his roots in Poland- it's the Ben-Gurionism of erasing ethnic diversity in Israel) got up to say something along the lines of “I wasn’t sure I wanted to enlist, but now I understand how small and vulnerable our little country is, and that it’s surrounded by enemies.” Even then, when the Palestinians weren’t even a speck in my mind, I thought: “Check- another good soldier.” It’s these 10 days that made me want to disconnect from my so-called heritage. I know who my family is, where they have been, what they’ve done. I’ll stick with that. I refuse to take upon my shoulders the complete history of the Jewish people- half of it is fabricated anyway, and the other half doesn’t matter to me, because as I said- I’m an Atheist. The holocaust for me, as you said, it’s full of irony. I have my own ways in remembering and respecting, but as long as it serves political purposes, no one is invited. All these things, I’ve learned to make my own- because of my “solidarity problem”. I take what you say to heart Ban, you’ve hit a nerve, I want you to know that. Thank you.
Separately, thank you for the links and titles. Reading them, I take it back- it’s not next to nothing- it’s nothing at all.
@Nerix Bar-On “Tali you dear to me. I am here to talk, not to blame or fight, because I see the truth of your position, I was there as well. But I wish you to see some of the more complex truth of how to create change.”
Look, I’m not gonna say it again, no “dear”, this is not personal, please respect that.
You just implied I’m naive, I hope you know that’s a tactic, commonly used by warmongers against pacifists. To that claim I have a ready answer:
“Inflected Form(s): na·iv·er; -est
Etymology: French naïve, feminine of naïf, from Old French, inborn, natural, from Latin nativus native
1 : marked by unaffected simplicity : ARTLESS, INGENUOUS
2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment; especially : CREDULOUS b : not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular experimental situation ; also : not having previously used a particular drug (as marijuana) c : not having been exposed previously to an antigen
3 a : SELF-TAUGHT, PRIMITIVE b : produced by or as if by a self-taught artist
synonym see NATURAL
- na·ive·ly or na·ïve·ly adverb
na·ive·ness noun”
Merriam-Webster http://cougar.eb.com/dictionary/naive
I’ll ignore number #3, because it’s irrelevant. About #1, I hardly think I’m simplifying anything. The fact that the occupation is the root cause of the situation, puts the majority of the blame with Israel. If you want to get into Palestinian attacks on Israelis, well- justice is done- the suicide bomber is dead and the few that dared venture into Israel proper, to stab someone, are caught, serving indefinitely without trial- so you know- Israel again.
About #2 I think I’ve seen way too many dead babies to say I’m “deficient in worldly wisdom”.
I don’t think you were ever in my position, because once you’re in my position, you can’t make a leap of logic into your position- it’s simply impossible.
It seems to me that you’re unaware of activist culture, it’s history and it’s complexities. You see, Neri, us left left naives like to work on several fronts. That’s why there are so many groups. Some work on the legal front, some on documentation, some on legislation, others on academics, others in the field, others in the arts, others donate and sign petitions. It gets even more complex as we create coalitions or migrate from group to group or activity to activity. Majority of activists will work on several fronts. You want to teach Neri? Go ahead. Propose strategies, tactics. That’s what I’m here for.
“we have knowledge that is not Jewish, it universal knowledge we can share with the palestinians. we can work together to build the only one possible future – that include all of us, from the refugees in Lebanon to the settler of Hebron. the international legal system do not have the power to influence Israel who is sure that the Arabs want its destruction.”
The Palestinians have knowledge, too, that isn’t Muslim or Christian that they can share with us. It’s an incredible 60 years of activism (on all fronts), that Israelis have no clue about, because they’re asleep on their recliners, while our government creates a biometric information pool of its citizens.
The settlers of Hebron need to pack their guns and get out of the Bank. Settlement are illegal, by both international and ISRAELI law. And of course the UN is week, it’s got our daddy-long-legs-USA veto-ing every pro-Palestinian initiative since 1947.
“The Arabs” don’t want our destruction, they want free Palestinians (and whatever other political gain they can make of their situation), but since we have no qualms about sneaking into Sudan and bombing a few trucks, I’m sure we have no qualms about nuking a few Iraqis, right?
“The Israelis are not capable to accept the blame you express. and I think you can see that too.”
Yes, I’m looking right at you.
Quite frankly, I doubt the Germans were capable of accepting the blame, but they were given no choice and we shouldn’t be given any choice either.
@Neri Bar-On – “It is grate to want to be x-israeli I lived with that wish many years. what come out of it? That Israel continued the Naqba; and your whole family and friends are Israelis.”
It’s not a wish, it’s a goal- it will be achieved. And as you can see, you can be an Israeli living somewhere else and still be very active and yes, effective. (Like Ilan Pappe, like Gilad that posts here and many others.) My family and friends will have to live with it, this isn’t news to them.
“So you can write here and there, and blame the Zionists, your parents and the whole world but you do not do what you need to do as some one who is intelligent and know to express herself.”
Again, you bring here information about me from somewhere else and abuse it for a cheap low blow. If you know my feelings about my parents, then you know you have no right to bring it up- that’s filthy and I won’t accept that.
Don’t diminish what I do. I don’t “write here and there”, I use my “talents of self expression” to document and analyze in a widely read forum of activists. I do it consistently and I create connections. I won’t repeat what I do, I’m sick of this activist-dick measuring contest.
You think I “ do not do what [I] need to do”? What do I need to do then? I’m still waiting for those strategies and tactics.
“Israelis who seek bringing change this is your moment to act. recognize the Nakba
let work together to bring this message out to the Israeli audience:
reacting recently Lieberman's party proposes ban on Arab Nakba
The Nakba is here, started in 48 and it continue till this day. Nakba end is most important for us as humans, we as Israelis are involved in this national crisis of the Arabs in Palestine, people who lived on this land that we live called home to the place we live today. people who are our neighbors and hopefully brothers in building 3rd millennium future, we cannot accept denial of what happened to them as we know our history well.”
Who are you talking to Neri? I’m the only acting Israeli here. Everybody here recognizes the Nakba, what do you want?
“I can contact the guys from Zuchrot and other groups and make sure the Israel have a law rto remember the Nakba.”
Yeah? Connect me to Zochrot then. I’d be happy to talk to them.
I don’t think there'll be a law passing on remembrance of Nakba- that’s a bit like passing a law to make me stand on Memorial Day- it’s so undemocratic even Israeli drones will notice.
@Neri Bar-On – You just stole an image, are you aware of that?
"I am confident the majority of the Israeli public, Jews and Arab citizens alike, will resist the irresponsibility of a ban on what has been and is real."
Don't make me laugh, and don't say "Jews and Arab citizens alike"- they are not alike. Arabs get randomly searched on the street and their ID's checked, when did that last happen to you?
"From the Palestinian perspective there is no doubt that there is an Israeli voice now in power in the Israeli government. Any acceptance of Israel would be an acceptance of this voice."
From your perspective- is there any doubt that there is an Israeli voice now [and for 61 long years] in power in the Israeli government? And would you stop touting Netanyahu's words- it does nothing to prove you want peace (the word is so hollow it collapses on itself).
OK, great Idea, let's all spread the word. I nominate Igor to start.
@Mary Rizzo – Yes, Mary. No surprise for me. You don't know it, but I've come a very long way since that time. I'm still learning… Three years since my wake-up is not a long time. The Occupation and it's horrors are endless. I discover something new almost every day… The Aharoni story: I regret it. Of course I knew that you were right – even at that time. I tried to tell you what were my reasons for playing that game. That's what it was: play that game in order to achieve something that was very important to me. And to achieve that (partially private) purpose I'm ready to do a LOT… At some point – for a similar reason (=for the same person) I refrained from participating in a demonstration I very much wanted to participate in because I had concerns about his safety linked to me… That was it. To me the whole thing – Aharoni and then the contrary (not participating in that demonstration) was loyality – not to you (sorry) but to my best friend on earth… Anyway – now, after the massacre of Gaza all these considerations have completely lost their value. The fronts are clear and I chose my side: Freedom and Justice for Palestine!
This discussion is a merry-go-round; it serves as a reminder to us that It is easy to get caught up in preaching to the choir.
I admire Mary's courage and her knowledge of the Palestinian issues. I do hope her readers take time away from their keyboards to take action against zionism. There's so much work to be done! Imagine how many minds can be enlightened if we each convince a preacher to discuss the issues during Sunday service. How about bringing up the issues at a church group? Many Evangelical churches have libraries and I get absolutely giddy when I strip the shelves of their zionist crap and replace it with Stephen Sizer's books.
I know there is some validity to arguing with zionists (and it really feels good, too), but honestly, how effective is it? Don't waste time with foxes. The sheep are easier to lead and they are more plentiful.
Sorry. I know I'm offending people. It just seems like we're at a turning point here and this is a prime opportunity to knock the crap out of the zionist agenda and it won't get done by arguing with people who will never change thier views.
Mary.
Now that you delete my most and select what to publish help you prove your point and expose your un fair narrow minded way you work.
@Bar-On Neri –
what have I deleted? what point are you trying to make? If you submit every time with different info (look at it yourself, 3 IDs and various emails) the machine puts you in spam.
I am a very fair person! You come here saying you want to "talk" but you don't address the post! You discuss and smear me on a board I can't post on and then YOU talk about what is fair?
Neri, allow me to say it. You are lost, a sick, lost individual.
@Sharon –
Thanks Sharon, that was a very kind comment with some good advice!
I however don't try to convince Neri or (as he says, "his ilk") to change their minds. I know how they think and I know how they operate, and my task, duty and goal is to demonstrate these ploys and tricks so that these people and their agendas are exposed. That way, people can concentrate on concrete actions, eliminating the false arguments and dominating the discourse without being fooled into closing ourselves off in a corner. My task is to expose hasbara. I was born to do it!
@Eva Ferrero –
I'm glad to read what you wrote Eva. It's not easy to admit there was something in our actions that we wish had been handled differently. I get betrayed and let down by people a lot (but friends try to avoid this because they know I've already lost many in the family for political reasons, and that it's hurtful for me to always go through that, thus, I create an armour about Israelis), so I figured that either I was not suitable to communicating with you or we were just too different in our goals. I am glad to hear that you have altered your view on something that (to me) seemed just so basilary. Anyway, welcome.
The comment wasn't directed at you, Mary. You offer an invaluable service and I have learned so much from following your work. My comment, which I regret the wording this morning, comes from my feeling that the comment sections of posts are a lot of hot air, which is a waste of resource when we could be discussing the article and offering tips and advice to our fellow readers.
Your writing offers insight, but in the comments that follow and the comments on so many pro-Palestinian sites, many knowledgable people simply argue their points, showing off their grasp of the issues. Very rarely do I see conversations about what they are actually doing to stop the spread of zionism or helping the Palestinian people.
One Sunday morning during the Gaza masacre, I was at church and my pastor held a moment of prayer for the Israelis and the Palestinians. He said we should all walk meakly, with our heads bowed, and pray for our leaders to resolve the crisis and bring peace. I was so angered by those comments, since it is precisely this attitude that has gotten us to this point. Praying helps, but it's going to take action to wipe zionism off the face of the earth.
I read lots of anger and puffing of feathers in the comments of posts, but I see little discussion about what people are doing in their own lives to make a difference. The comment section would be better if people offered insight and tips relating to the post, rather than simply spewing their regurgitated talking points. If hot air and snark could wipe out zionism, we would be at peace now.
@Tali
I have genuinely enjoyed speaking to you and others here. I miss discussion and debate. I also like Palestinian mothers, but it’s hard to get a discussion going there. Mary’s site is more free wheeling LOL
Tali said:
Thank you so much. I won't lie- I need soft words and I need them from the people who know that pain. I've gotten nothing but smiles since I joined Palestinian Mothers and just that was an incredibly human experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks for that, but I assure you I’m no peace loving tree hugger. I fully supported the Irish armed struggle and I have no reservations in saying that. It had to be done. But all wars end with negotiations and an ultimate peace process, all of them, even this one will end that way one day. The problem is when will that day be? In the meantime, Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed daily, and Israel continues its siege, which is an act of war. Yet when Palestine fights back they are branded “terrorists” how Ironic.
Tali said:
One thing- I'm an Atheist. I understand what you meant I think for me, the beginning of understanding what was going on was those 10 days in Poland. They bring you there for a group cry- I resented it (I used to think I find solidarity disgusting, today I know that it's only specific types of solidarity). I got very angry, the teachers rile you up, they want you to cry. One of the most explicit moments for me was when one of the boys (Moroccan- don't ask what he's doing searching for his roots in Poland- it's the Ben-Gurionism of erasing ethnic diversity in Israel) got up to say something along the lines of “I wasn’t sure I wanted to enlist, but now I understand how small and vulnerable our little country is, and that it’s surrounded by enemies.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I’m an Atheist as well LOL, although I do attend mass for people’s funerals and weddings. A funny thing, which can also apply to the Israeli conflict it has with its neighbours. You see, when we were fighting the British and their Protestant loyalists here, they attacked our religion. So, our religion became more important to us here, even atheists like me would attend Mass, it was a way to rebel against them. This is exactly what happens when Israel and America go after Muslim nations, or attack Muslims. Muslims, even moderate ones, close ranks around the religion that is under fire from outsiders and enemies. After the disaster of the US puppet Shah of Iran, what happened? The country went hard-line. So, the answer is to let people evolve themselves, and they will if not constantly under attack or threat. America needs to learn that every country in the world does not want to be a carbon copy of America.
Tali, it is Incredible that you, at such a young age had the insight and capacity to understand so very well what was taking place on your trip to Poland. I think some people are born with this ability, to always think past what they are being presented with, and ask the question “Why?” am I being shown this, what is expected of me and for what interest, who gains from this. You were able to recognize the “hasbara” at a young age and you resented being used. Good for you.
Tali Said:
I have my own ways in remembering and respecting, but as long as it serves political purposes, no one is invited. All these things, I’ve learned to make my own- because of my “solidarity problem”. I take what you say to heart Ban, you’ve hit a nerve, I want you to know that. Thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am happy to hear this and I hope I did not upset you. I believe that the histories of ALL people are an important part of who they are, we can learn from our histories and be better for them. Very happy to have met you Tali, you have my deepest respect and admiration.
@Bar-On Neri
Neri, I want to call you out on something here. In your posst below to Eva and Tali regarding the mepeace site et al.
Neri Said to Eva:
“In mepeace you write "your truth" but from what you say you expect to educate us. instead we are looking for multi-political discussion to combine our different truths.
Sadly, Mary and you never understood that and you thought that if we do not agree with you we are some kind of Nazis and Racist who ignore the truth.
for working together you need flexibility, you and Mary never show that attribute. see how Mary prefer sites that only "like minded" come and say to each other "you are so right" "that is so true" etc. Booring don't you think?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Neri, you have actually just proved the point that many here seem to be saying. You have used the above argument in an attempt to illustrate that MePeace contains a collective group of people with differing views, able to hold discussion among themselves on all issues. Yet, your very words above and below dispute that. You continually refer to the collective “we” and “us” at MePeace against the small number of dissenters. So who is in control? The collective which you belong to is in control, and that collective appears to not want to have to deal with dissenters with differing or difficult opinions outside the collective’s views on your site. So how is that free discussion of differing opinions?
>>>>>>>>>You also said:
““In mepeace you write "your truth" but from what you say you expect to educate us.”
>>>>>>>>>Hence you are speaking for a group as their representative and as a collective that all agrees. This would make Mary and others the outsiders who hold differing opinions than the collective majority you represent when you say “we” and “us” So again, your groups appears to not be interested in being confronted with issues outside of it’s comfort zone. You also refer the collective “we” and “us” at MePeace again as well when you said this:
“Sadly, Mary and you never understood that and you thought that if we do not agree with you we are some kind of Nazis and Racist who ignore the truth.”>>>>>> I say again Neri, you say “we” don’t agree, which I say again implies that your group is one minded and intolerable of dissent among ranks.
>>>>>And again here when you said this:
“ for working together you need flexibility, you and Mary never show that attribute. see how Mary prefer sites that only "like minded" come and say to each other "you are so right" "that is so true" etc. Booring don't you think?”
>>>>> Neri, you just shot yourself in the foot with this one, using the word “flexibility” and “Like Minded” against the dissenters, is a wee bit rich, when you continually refer to your group as “we” and “us” and then you go on to state that groups who all agree and who are incapable of holding discussion are “Booring don't you think?” Your words there, yet this is exactly what it appears your group is in incapable of tolerating as I have pointed out using your very words to Tali, Eva and Mary in this thread. What I have seen for the last few days in this thread on Mary’s site is that you are here, espousing your views, people are arguing back, and guess what? No one has died; no one has shriveled up and turned to dust because they heard an opposing view. Perhaps you should examine your own words in the light of defending your “open “discussion group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Next, you said this to Tali:
“you are very proud with your doing ; getting a rubber bullet was probably a pleasure. and express your emotions towards the Palestinian condition make you feel good.
But the Nakba continue, and you are now waiting with Mary for Gaza2 to come on the Palestinian so you will have some more dead palestinian to celebrate your blame. some more "international crimes".
Enjoy yuor time, watch the Palestinian die and think to yourself "I am good – I love Arabs"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..Neri, Seriously, You have already lost the discussion and can no longer be taken seriously in this debate. When you are forced to revert to insults like these you have written above you have already lost. To attempt to assassinate the character of people you disagree with is pretty low, to be honest. If you truly feel the Palestinians are treated unfairly, even if you have disagreements with others here, you should be thanking Tali for her work and personal sacrifices for Palestine and arguing any disagreements with facts and political points, not personal insults.. As what Tali or anyone elses work for Palestine should be shared goals for anyone claming to be for the Palestinians freedom. Instead you choose to insult Tali and others for their work, which, I say again, means you have no facts and can only fight back with insults, therefore, you have already lost the discussion.
@Sharon –
Sharon, it actually doesn't feel good at all. It's quite frustrating. Sometimes I wonder how it happens to begin with, as both sides know very well there's nothing to discuss. I agree with you, that the iron is hot, I feel the change everywhere. Sadly, in Israel it translates into the government getting more violent and cracking down on activists and Israeli Palestinians. But I see the international public react, massive protests and loads of criticism.
I gotta tell you, that's a delightful idea- to bring issues into the church. Religions would really keep up to date if they touched on what's going on in the now.
@Ban Sidhe –
You didn’t upset me at all. You made me think- always a pleasant experience.
Thank you, I’m genuinely enjoying you, too Ban
I always thought Hamas should at least distribute the arms to their people, instead of cynically using the be-grieved to go off and kill children. On the other hand, I saw a video today- they were having a demonstration at Bilin in memory of Bassem Abu Rahmah. He liked flying kites, so they flew kites (I adore their creativity!). I thought the video was unbelievably effective. I mean you got them flying kites to the fence and the IDF showers them with so many gas canisters, you can’t see anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUgf7fVHCNM
Now that’s one to distribute far and wide. Then there’s the technical international legal mambojumbo, that Zionists don’t like, that states that any military action on their part, is legal, because they are being oppressed. Yeah, I’m a treehugger, but I’m not gonna be the one to tell them not to use violence, that’s for sure.
I agree on what you said about religion. I think nationality in this case is the same. I’m not into the whole national identity thing (an internationalist, I’m told it’s called), but in the Palestinian’s case, again- you got Golda Meir saying “there never was a Palestinian people”, and people continue to say it! The more they deny, the more a Palestinian nationality is strengthened. It’s magic!
I try to ignore the religious portions of weddings and funerals. Under the circumstances, in Israel, I find Judaism offensive.
I don’t believe I was born with it, I believe I’m just extra sensitive- my personal space is easily penetrated, so I always had trouble with authority. School systems are very authoritative- in my view repressive. And what happens when a child acts out? Parents and teachers all agree: “something is wrong with this generation” (=”terrorists the lot of them!”). They’re solution: ”There’s not enough discipline in the school” (=”repress them harder, so they never raise their heads!”). You know what that makes? Good soldiers. You put someone like me in that environment, you’re bound to get a self hating jew
@Tali –
"I always thought Hamas should at least distribute the arms to their people" – A STRANGE thought. Are you implying that Hamas should give arms to all the Gazans so they defend themselves against the jewnazi army? Where and how could they get those arms? And even if they could somehow manage to get them, what would those rifles help against the jewnazi planes and tanks?
"instead of cynically using the be-grieved to go off and kill children" – Sorry, but this is jewnazi speak at its "best". I'll repeat myself with a quote from the other thread: "It's sad to see every now and then 'jewishness' come to the surface even in those who claim to be cured of it." It's not easy to get rid of ways of thinking learned at an early age – yordim living for a long time far away from Israhell can tell you that, even Gilad Atzmon wrote about this in one of his articles.
Btw, keep it going, you're on the right path – imho at least…
@ByTheWay – I agree- it wouldn't help much, but it's no better in the hands of the government.
about "instead of cynically using the be-grieved to go off and kill children" – What I know is that the Palestinians that did suicide bombings were always ones who suffered terribly- loved one is murdered in front of their eyes, etc. I also know that what happens is that this person- in a state of deep grief and depression and a general suicidal state of mind- goes to whomever is in charge of these operations and asks to be armed and pointed in the right direction. Had that official cared, he'd take the boy or girl by the hand and lead them right back to their family, so they could somehow nurture them out of their depression and keep them alive. That's why I call it cynical.
@Tali – @Tali –
"it's no better in the hands of the government" – I really don't know the truth but I suppose that the arms are in the hands of units of young fighters. I doubt that Haniyah – the man I respect – and his friends are sitting on those poor arms keeping them all for themselves.
A couple of years ago I spent a couple of weeks reading the jewnazi sites – mostly Haaretz – and studying their twisted and spun language, the so-called jewnazi speak. So I'd expect the phrase "Hamas should at least distribute the arms to their people, instead of cynically using the be-grieved to go off and kill children" to come from a jewnazi who
1) wants to denigrate the Hamas as an organization having huge amounts of the best weapons in the world but not distributing them to its people so that they can defend themselves – ie the (bad) Palestinians have (voted) a """bad""" government, a government that doesn't care for its people – and of course the Hamas's WMD could be used to destroy all Jewish life in minutes,
2) wants to defame the Hamas as subhuman barbarians who instead of helping the people in need and distress force them to commit the most despicable and unforgivable act, ie through self-sacrifice killing Jewish children (the jewnazi mantra of the Palestinian self-bombers who want to kill "as many as possible" Jewish children), implying that the Palestininian people would live in peace with their peaceful jewnazi neighbors and that it is only the Hamas, the now most dangerous Islamo-fascist nazi-regime, the new Hitler, who want to eradicate all Jewish life, who CYNICALLY exploit and destroy their own people. (imho they probably wouldn't have committed suicide if they had had fully equipped F-16 bombers at their disposal).
"What I know is that the Palestinians that did suicide bombings were always ones who suffered terribly" – imho there are quite a few hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who suffered terribly.
I doubt your claim that nobody would have become a self-bomber if they hadn't been "cynically" used. Btw, I don't hear Jews claim that they're "cynically used" when they commit their atrocities.
"so they could somehow nurture them out of their depression and keep them alive" – Speaking frankly, seeing the way they must live – in constant suppression, with no freedom, in constant awareness that the next moment they can be incarcerated and tortured or even murdered as beings of lesser value – what would you choose in their place?
I'm very happy there is a lot of interesting debate going on here! I would love to contribute more (I have a LOT I want to say, but work calls and I'll have to put it off for still more.)
I only would like to add my quick view about "suicide bombers".
1) the quantity of them is vastly exaggerated by Israel and by all propagandists against Islam. There are many misconceptions and it is a question that is so delicate that real studies about them are very hard to come by.
2) the concept of life, time and freedom is different in various cultures. I wrote about this issue and later will find some links dealing with this more in depth. There is however the idea of sacrifice which is present in almost all cultures, including the Jewish one. If the cause is greater than the individual, there is no question that sacrifice is acceptable, even the ultimate one of one's own life.
3) read this: http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/01/naim-ateek-suicide-bombing-from.html
4) Hamas, the Palestinians, etc. have every right to resist. It is a guaranteed right. The mass media wants to create confusion between resistance and terrorism.
You deleted some long answers I wrote for Tali, you, ByTheWay,Ban Sidhe
you cannot be trusted as fair.
@N B –
YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH! every little tiny word you wrote is there. Look for it! It took a while to be posted because since you change your ID name (Neri, Nerix, NB, etc) your http and email, (pretty variable, can't remember which one you use here? Try to make a note of it) it gets sorted into the spam folder. Like all busy people, the spam folder gets checked maybe once a day, and things that are either LONG or have more than two links or that are of dubious ownership since they contain some elements that are already "used" as an ID are stored there.
It is there, so stop accusing me. Again, if you aren't going to address the points in the post, don't even bother. You should also just put the URL of this up at the echo chamber instead of printing only what you think is right to show, because people will see that no one takes your argumentation seriously and you have been exposed as a fake.
@ByTheWay –
“"it's no better in the hands of the government" – I really don't know the truth but I suppose that the arms are in the hands of units of young fighters. I doubt that Haniyah – the man I respect – and his friends are sitting on those poor arms keeping them all for themselves.”
Agreed. But they are also in the hands of people who plan out action and send out some one else to do the dirty work. There are these devisions and they are built on a certain hierarchy- not solidarity.
“wants to denigrate the Hamas as an organization having huge amounts of the best weapons in the world but not distributing them to its people so that they can defend themselves – ie the (bad) Palestinians have (voted) a """bad""" government, a government that doesn't care for its people – and of course the Hamas's WMD could be used to destroy all Jewish life in minutes,
wants to defame the Hamas as subhuman barbarians who instead of helping the people in need and distress force them to commit the most despicable and unforgivable act, ie through self-sacrifice killing Jewish children (the jewnazi mantra of the Palestinian self-bombers who want to kill "as many as possible" Jewish children), implying that the Palestininian people would live in peace with their peaceful jewnazi neighbors and that it is only the Hamas, the now most dangerous Islamo-fascist nazi-regime, the new Hitler, who want to eradicate all Jewish life, who CYNICALLY exploit and destroy their own people. (imho they probably wouldn't have committed suicide if they had had fully equipped F-16 bombers at their disposal)”
I never said any of that, I think I explained my view on the matter. And I think it be realistic to say that Hamas government has made a few mistakes- some quite heinous against its own people. Frankly, until I hear the exact views on these issues from Palestinians, I can’t judge, but I can say what it looks like to me and I’m sorry, it looks cynical. I think if Hamas was to listen to its people more intently, the organization of the people would be better and more unified. They often act as though they are a government of a free people, it looks detached. I read a survey that indicated they or any other faction are basically with almost no support. From what I understand, (and no, I have no first hand knowledge) Palestinians don’t trust their leaders. This is a huge issue. As Americans would tell you- just because you vote for a man doesn’t mean you want him in power- he’s just the lesser evil. As far as I understand it Hamas was basically voted for because the people didn’t want the PLO in charge anymore.
“"What I know is that the Palestinians that did suicide bombings were always ones who suffered terribly" – imho there are quite a few hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who suffered terribly.”
Goes without saying, but the young people who did the bombings went into a certain state of grief that enabled taking advantage of.
“I doubt your claim that nobody would have become a self-bomber if they hadn't been "cynically" used. Btw, I don't hear Jews claim that they're "cynically used" when they commit their atrocities.”
Of course Jews don’t claim that, they’re brain washed. And yes, there were recent actions that were taken by independent Palestinians, but they weren’t suicidal. Guy took a knife, risked his life to get into Israel proper and stabbed a random soldier. An understandable action, a dangerous action, but not a suicidal one.
“"so they could somehow nurture them out of their depression and keep them alive" – Speaking frankly, seeing the way they must live – in constant suppression, with no freedom, in constant awareness that the next moment they can be incarcerated and tortured or even murdered as beings of lesser value – what would you choose in their place? “
I couldn’t fathom being in their place, but I’ve met some nurturing mothers in the past few days, and I’ve seen so much positivity and hope in people that you’d expect to just want to kill themselves. We underestimate the human spirit- it wants to live.
@Mary Rizzo –
Mary, I completely agree with each point and that article is fascinating.
@Tali –
"But they are also in the hands of people who plan out action and send out some one else to do the dirty work. There are these devisions and they are built on a certain hierarchy- not solidarity" – I don't understand what you mean by "action", "dirty work" and "devisions". Anyway, imho they have every right to take any action in order to free their country. It's their struggle, and my duty as a human being is to help them to achieve their rightful goals, to attain justice, and not to tell them what they should do and how they should do it.
As to the Hamas: you tow the official Israhelli line. I of course see it differenty.
"As Americans would tell you" – The Americans will tell you what the Israhellis tell them to tell. And btw, the American elections are imho a farcical pageant in which just another jewnazified war criminal gets elected to massmurder the innocent people around the globe for the benefit of Israhell…
@ByTheWay –
“I don't understand what you mean by "action", "dirty work" and "devisions". Anyway, imho they have every right to take any action in order to free their country. It's their struggle, and my duty as a human being is to help them to achieve their rightful goals, to attain justice, and not to tell them what they should do and how they should do it.”
What I meant in the context of what I said:
“action”- something they want to do.
“dirty work” – the actual doing of whatever was planned to be done (said “action”).
“devisions” – things that separate the planners from the doers (I admit it was a bad choice of word, as it can be construed in the military sense.)
I agree with both Mary and you on the point of their right to struggle as they choose, I’ve said that in my original reply to Ban.
“As to the Hamas: you tow the official Israhelli line. I of course see it differenty.”
I actually quite obviously don’t, but keep on trolling.
“"As Americans would tell you" – The Americans will tell you what the Israhellis tell them to tell. And btw, the American elections are imho a farcical pageant in which just another jewnazified war criminal gets elected to massmurder the innocent people around the globe for the benefit of Israhell…”
Again, that’s what I said- the American bi-partisan system is a pseudo-democracy. And seeing as you seem to be grouping a lot of people into stereotypes, I’d like to correct you on it- many Americans speak against their government and their atrocities. Not enough, but you gotta start somewhere.
@N B – I think you're the only one here that doesn't trust Mary.
i may disappoint some of you by my observation that movements and orgs do not bring on any changes that the ruling class does not approve of or sees some value in them for self.
ruling classes feared schooling children but once they discovered how valuable this tool wld be in indoctrinating children or fill them with lies, hatred, racist views , schools were not only accepted but made mandatory.
thus, israeli or 'jewish' chat groups or orgs are of little value for justice, peace, healthcare, right to be informed or to have higher education, etc.
such groups are in loops; from which they never venture out. Such groups do not cast the widest look possible but most of the time much narrower or even the narrowest one.
and, the wider the vista, the wiser one is. Natch, avoided by nearly all priests and politicians in US.
because, of course, elucidation must be avoided by whatever means possible.
only a party with a wide[st] platform, which wld include all basic human rights or universal human rights, can bring on change.
a party is difficult and even impossible to infiltrate and thus weaken or tear asunder; orgs or movements quickly dissipate or are splintreed into slivers.
so, what israel and US need is a party that is diametrically opposed to what now exist in the two lands.
i'm not sure if nader leads an org, movement, or a party. I hope it's a perty. tnx
@bozh –
Bozh, I agree on your point with the ruling class- capitalism kills democracy. I don’t agree about groups and movements. I think organizing is imperative BECAUSE of the way our society is run. These groups usually work to educate or change education and so forth. A revolution doesn’t happen in one day. If groups are genuine about their cause (and I know of many in Israel that are; Btselem, Amnesty Israel, New Profile and so on), they use the internet mainly to distribute information, not to chatter all day long. A group like MePeace had great potential in the idea of getting Jews and Palestinians to meet. This is of great importance, because we don’t. Once you meet “the enemy”, you realize there’s nothing to fear (but your government). The fact that MePeace squanders this opportunity makes them not only superfluous, but outright damaging.
The bi-partisan system is inherently undemocratic, hence hopeless. Surprisingly enough, Israel has a multi-party system, and there are 3 parties that are diametrically opposed to the occupation and it’s policies. They have 11 sits out of 120. In my view, these three parties (who smartly work in coalition, albeit some disagreements and a little petty trashing here and there) are part of the movement. It’s the law making front and it’s just a part of the puzzle. The fact that they are physically in the streets- protesting with their constituency- what they are not powerful enough to change from within, really exemplifies their part in the movement.
Nader did a little bit of all three http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader (it’s in the first paragraph
)
@bozh –
You don't disappoint me when you say that, Bozh, because basically I have come to the same conclusions. I was involved in so many peace groups and movements throughout my life and find that very few of them actually are more than a social club. Maybe even PTT is just a social club… But at least I like it!
I believe in the principle that once the masses get their thinking and acting focused on change, then change will be harder to prevent, because without power, there isn't a lot that even a huge mass can do, but they can make it harder for the powers to act as if they have obtained consent. Whether that will bring police states about is a problem that often torments me. Resisting is always going to have its suppression be exaggerated. The other thing I believe in is to coalise only with the people who are on the same page as me. Some might find that "boring", but it's not to have fun, it's to see the best way to put forward the information we have, share it, elaborate it and then act. This is why my activism has changed. I don't do much street work anymore, but founded a translations collective and then, of course, we have these sites that print material we think should be in the discourse. Every day we meet new, great people. So, being broad and all-encompassing is LESS able to lead to important and meaningful relationships between activists. It's better to have good dialogue with people you totally respect.
The "peace" discussion boards aren't even a good training ground anymore for arguing, since they are at the service of the Zionists. It's a good place for them, to find new ways to tear at those who challenge them (never the issues, just the persons!), I suppose, but for anyone else, it is useless. and YES, they spend literally HOURS chatting away! Maybe it serves a social void they have or who knows what.
MePeace asked people to say what they hoped to achieve (as well as calling them all "peacemakers"!) I hoped to network, meet a few people with whom to collaborate. I went away from there (active for I think 5 months) with only 3 new friends I didn't know before. I conserved only one of them! How is that for a record! But, when you are being mobbed and gatekept, this probably is a decent record!
@Tali –
well, it seems to me, we've never had a democracy anywhere. So, i beg to differ with your statement that a three, two, or one party systems kills democracy.
cultism, commonly called religion, alone occludes even a fledgling democracy, let alone the kind that constantly get's better.
and not to mention a horrendous 'education' of children in most lands and evil empires such as UK, france, russia, pak'n, israel, US, etc.
how about referendums? Why not let the people decide to invade a land? But only after proper enlightenment or an education controled to a degree also by low classes and not just high class?
we've had democracy! But it had been usurped -possibly ca 20-30K yrs ago- by shamans and later clergy.
and how can theocracies, such as in iran and israel, coexist in peace, mutual respect with non-cultism.
in infinity of time and an endless and ruthless usurpation of basic human rights by a ruling class, groups, movements are ephemeral in nature.
if slaughter in gaza, holocaust, plight of pashtuns, hiroshima, and an almost endless number of crimes on int'l level doesn't prove that movements are near or totally useless even in not preventing death of children, what is it gonna take to show or prove that the orgs and movements are actually deleterious to panhuman progress.
remember, they are allowed and some even tax-exempt. Why? tnx
@bozh –
"how can theocracies, such as in iran and israel, coexist in peace, mutual respect with non-cultism" – I'm an atheist, but in principle I have nothing against states that can be called theocracies – it's the people there who ultimately decide on the kind of their state, no other state has the right to tell others states/peoples how they should live. But the problem in Palestine is not religion, it's colonialism. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians, not to the European, American and Russian Jews. The Jews can have whatever state they want, but only on their own territory, not on a foreign, stolen land, while millions and millions of its rightful owners are waiting for it to be given back to them.
As to the "peace" (and all the other Israhelli and pro-Israhelli) groups: As far as I can tell they don't want justice for the Palestinians, ie they don't want that the Palestinians get back their land, all they want is to make the Palestinians renounce their inalienable rights to their land and to selfdetermination – offering them in exchange "talk about peace", "talk about common future", "play and sing together", "have a party together" and the like.
All those Israhellis who really want to help the Palestinians to attain justice have already left the illegal unlawful criminal jewnazi state of Israhell and spread the truth about this cancer of the world – just like Gilad Atzmon has done. As to those in Israhell: Quidquid id est, timeo judeos et dona ferentes…
you are right, palestine belongs to the palestinians. According to this view, euro-asians with judaic cult have no right to be in palestine.
i do not recognize state of israel in any shape or size!
this artificial state, unless judeo-christian world permits expulsion of all palestinians, will evanesce.
israel is a near- or total dependency of judeo-christian world. The fact, that israelis don't have a country they desire, proves its a dependency of western countries.
it is a bugbear, that the west is controled by 'jews' or 'jews'/ israelis. It is, as far as i can see, the other way around.
this is why mini zionists who favor two state nonsolution like chomsky, zinn et al want that 'solution' since one state solution does away with a "jewish' state and israel.
these people have not disclosed, as far as i know, why they are for the two state 'solution'.
thus, perforce, we must guess. It seems they want to preserve a 'jewish' state that existed prior to '67 and thus end hatred of 'jews' and [ab]use by mostly christians.
i think they fear that 'jews' are being used and since they are no longer of any strategic value, west may abandon them to the wolves.
actually, israel was not ever of any strategic import. Everything that israelis have obtained, cld have been obtained by nato; and much quicker.
so, some 'jews' think, methinks, that jews for some unknown reason{s} or causative factors are just being abused
in any case, the entire conflict doesn't make any sense except to rabid cultists! tnx bozhidar balkas
@bozh –
“well, it seems to me, we've never had a democracy anywhere. So, i beg to differ with your statement that a three, two, or one party systems kills democracy.”
I agree that there was never a democracy (really interesting talk on the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IO_Ldn2H4o), but the bi-partisan system leaves people unrepresented. Even in this little fascist hell hole, there is a party that I stand behind nearly 100%. Americans had to settle for the war criminal Obama. My chosen party is tiny, I admit, but it’s the people I stand behind with pride, not because they’re the lesser evil.
Also, if we are to see politics as a stagnate situation, then indeed we may as well give up now. But it really isn’t- it’s always in flux. It’s logical to say we’ll never have the perfect democracy, but we can strive for it, constantly and consistently. When we don’t (like what’s happening now), we get pushed by other powers, that divert us away from our goal. So IMO any action is good action- some are better than others. White Rose said “Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure.”
“cultism, commonly called religion, alone occludes even a fledgling democracy, let alone the kind that constantly get's better.
and not to mention a horrendous 'education' of children in most lands and evil empires such as UK, france, russia, pak'n, israel, US, etc.
how about referendums? Why not let the people decide to invade a land? But only after proper enlightenment or an education controled to a degree also by low classes and not just high class?
we've had democracy! But it had been usurped -possibly ca 20-30K yrs ago- by shamans and later clergy.
and how can theocracies, such as in iran and israel, coexist in peace, mutual respect with non-cultism.”
Agreed.
“in infinity of time and an endless and ruthless usurpation of basic human rights by a ruling class, groups, movements are ephemeral in nature.
if slaughter in gaza, holocaust, plight of pashtuns, hiroshima, and an almost endless number of crimes on int'l level doesn't prove that movements are near or totally useless even in not preventing death of children, what is it gonna take to show or prove that the orgs and movements are actually deleterious to panhuman progress.
remember, they are allowed and some even tax-exempt. Why? Tnx”
I don’t agree that movements and organizations damage. It’s a matter of numbers. Movements are small and they fight big and powerful demons. You can’t win every battle and you can’t save every child, but you can try. Don’t try- you fail. I believe in communities. I believe we should be more connected to each other. Then when trouble arises, you already have a group. Right now, it works the opposite way- first there’s a cause, then there’s a group.
Chomsky, Zinn, Finkelstein are NOT Zionists by any stretch of the imagination. They are Jews, it's a cultural heritage and a religion (I'm quite sure that in their cases it's not the religion). I don't doubt that they'd like a one state solution. A two state solution solves nothing as it disregards the right of return, IMO. What are Palestinians going to do with Gaza and WB, when they cant return to Beer Sheva and Heifa? However, I think they are looking at it pragmatically- the world is unfortunately set on a two- state solution- both the UN and Arab states, Palestinian leaders as well. It's a capitulation, without a doubt, but it seems to be what they ask for.
@Tali – "Chomsky, Zinn, Finkelstein are NOT Zionists by any stretch of the imagination" – I don't know Zinn enough to cast my final judgement on him, but the other two are soft jewnazis. They use exactly (sic!!!) the same jewnazi reasoning as you in " I think they are looking at it pragmatically- the world is unfortunately set on a two- state solution- both the UN and Arab states, Palestinian leaders as well"…
this is very interesting! Tali wrote:
"I don’t agree that movements and organizations damage. It’s a matter of numbers. Movements are small and they fight big and powerful demons. You can’t win every battle and you can’t save every child, but you can try. Don’t try- you fail. I believe in communities. I believe we should be more connected to each other. Then when trouble arises, you already have a group. Right now, it works the opposite way- first there’s a cause, then there’s a group."
Mary: I'd love to get my friend Niki Rapaana here, she is the absolute expert in communities (and she warns us about the dangers of Communitarianism). I will send this to Niki now and hope she has time to contribute. In the meantime, I will make my own comment about this. I believe first in a cause, then in a group! Just the opposite. Why? Because a community has a "tribal" feel to it. If a community is indeed a social-economic structure, its primary goal is the survival of its community and maintenance of a certain hierarchy, an example is how people fear policemen rather than trust them in big cities, because police in those places often are involved in some kind of corruption. Add to that, individuals in a community may not have the same causes due to the hierarchy, and just being a community is no recipe for peaceful coexistence.
Especially in a situation with the Palestinians in the world, they are divided in Israel, Palestine, the refugee camps and in exile and diaspora. How can they share a community if not one that is the cause? The cause becomes the cohesion and this is what should remain in the forefront.
Movements can be good, but I have found them often very much failing when it comes to Palestine. The AntiWar movement died as well, but Iraqis are still dying. Movements that seek to say that everyone of a certain group should or can think a certain way are failed from the outset, because they fail to promote their goals and then fall back on things that are irrelevant. For instance, any movement that is a "generic" peace movement will not go far to analyse the problems because it is afraid of small numbers, isolation, smear campaigns and what have you. It is ultimately ineffective.
@ByTheWay – You know what, I'm sick of you calling me a Jewnazi. I'm done explaining myself to you, I owe you nothing, unless you're Palestinian.
@Tali –
Well done, Tali. I have told him/her to stop doing it and all the more is it totally inappropriate against you. You add discourse that is important, relevant and interesting. Labeling you in such a way is offensive and By The Way has this (third) warning, one more time, and I will have to ban. It's just too offensive and totally unnecessary.
@Mary Rizzo –
So let's do it right! In the end, we're talking about billions of people- you can't really organize that. Many groups is a natural phenomena, because as you say, we can't all agree. That's why there are coalitions. You say the peace movement failed, maybe it needs to find new tactics, maybe get more tightly organized, maybe it needs to truly disrupt- not pay taxes, strike, take a plane to Iraq and serve as human shields, storm the Bastille and take the president nonviolently hostage. It seems to me that it all depends on what you got to loose. I don't know, this is all new to me, but whatever isn't done now will be done later, because the choices will be even more limited. Basically fear is what kills these groups.
I'd love to hear what your friend, Niki, has to say! I'm reading Michael Albert's Parecon- the idea is a participatory society- it's a bit complex for me and I'd love to hear what happens in the field.
@Mary Rizzo –
"one more time, and I will have to ban" – OK, this is my last comment here.
Btw, I've seen "I owe you nothing, unless you're Palestinian" quite a few times on the internet. No need to guess written by whom…
Tali wrote:
So let's do it right! In the end, we're talking about billions of people- you can't really organize that.
Mary: How right you are!
Tali: Many groups is a natural phenomena, because as you say, we can't all agree. That's why there are coalitions. You say the peace movement failed,
Mary: It failed because it couldn't decide if Iraqi deaths were also a problem, nor could they agree that the USA was occupying a foreign country, nor did they know if it was for Oil or for something else. At the end of the day, it got Obama in and then forgot all the rest. But it failed long before that in not taking any real stance against the war but against "war in general".
Tali: maybe it needs to find new tactics, maybe get more tightly organized, maybe it needs to truly disrupt- not pay taxes, strike, take a plane to Iraq and serve as human shields, storm the Bastille and take the president nonviolently hostage.
Mary: These are all ideas, and know what the "movement" lacked, just that – ideas. There would be someone who said, "if we do this X or Y will be against it" and everyone is afraid of the backlash. But getting back to just the Palestinian issue, what counts is for Palestinians to recognise that whether they are in Haifa, Nahr el Bared, New Jersey or Saudi Arabia, they are Palestinians with the same cause, and then they have to work hard at getting the world to recognise this fact. That would be a great and important step that the world can make, to recognise the singularity of Palestinians, no matter what happened to them or where they live. It will be easier to do everything once this condition is met, but it is behind a cause. (Palestinian rights).
Tali: It seems to me that it all depends on what you got to loose. I don't know, this is all new to me, but whatever isn't done now will be done later, because the choices will be even more limited. Basically fear is what kills these groups.
Mary: That's a completely valid observation.
Tali: I'd love to hear what your friend, Niki, has to say! I'm reading Michael Albert's Parecon- the idea is a participatory society- it's a bit complex for me and I'd love to hear what happens in the field.
Mary: I just sent an e to her, hope she will pop in. She has a splendid blog, by the way http://nikiraapana.blogspot.com/
I like Znet, and used to read it regularly. I'd have to find time to read another book though! Still trying to finish 4 books I promised to review. However, I believe that there is going to be a danger to a participatory society, judging by what I know of communitarianism. It's something people must reflect upon especially because individual rights will always remain a set and established boundary that can't be violated, and how much can we really invest in a community? There is going to be a cost to it.
@Mary Rizzo
“It failed because it couldn't decide if Iraqi deaths were also a problem, nor could they agree that the USA was occupying a foreign country, nor did they know if it was for Oil or for something else. At the end of the day, it got Obama in and then forgot all the rest. But it failed long before that in not taking any real stance against the war but against "war in general".”
Sounds like you got MePeacers in your Peace Movement
As you said to me (I don’t remember on which post and at which site…lol), you want to deal with like-minded people that you know can get things done. If you got people wondering wether death and occupation is ok, send them off to read some Zinn, Chomsky and Said and then let them back in the playpen.
Obama is a capitalistic pop culture problem (but undeniably something that needed to happen on behalf of the African American voter- the man did get blacks to vote in unprecedented numbers).
You said this twice, so I’m assuming I need a bit of clearing up. When you say “against war in general”, what phenomena exactly are you referring to?
“they are Palestinians with the same cause, and then they have to work hard at getting the world to recognise this fact. That would be a great and important step that the world can make, to recognise the singularity of Palestinians, no matter what happened to them or where they live. It will be easier to do everything once this condition is met, but it is behind a cause.”
But Mary, you can’t ask this of them! I know your frustration. I have a few Palestinian Israeli friends that aren’t even aware of all the facts! They know the history, and some version of current events (not to mention constant harassment and governmental racism), and yet, they’d rather go about their lives. I can’t/don’t have the right to make them. On the bright side, however, I think it’s a loss of hope. And when I talk with them about this and they see my passion, they get a spark and start asking me, how I know more than them, what should they do to get more knowledge and all that. Basically what Palestinians need is to know that there are others with them. Many feel like the forgotten people and just make the best of what their life in diaspora can afford them. I think it’s up to the international community to stand up, and this will shake their despair away.
“I believe that there is going to be a danger to a participatory society, judging by what I know of communitarianism. It's something people must reflect upon especially because individual rights will always remain a set and established boundary that can't be violated, and how much can we really invest in a community? There is going to be a cost to it. ”
You’re gonna have to brief me on communitarianism
(thanks for the link!)
Since I’m not familiar with the costs, I’m gonna say something really naive: Everything! It’s YOUR community! OK, now give me the cons
@Eva Ferrero – nice thread! PTT rocks!
Hi Tali, It's lovely to discuss with you (wish I had more time!) but for the moment, will just respond quickly to a few points.
1) you wrote: You said this twice, so I’m assuming I need a bit of clearing up. When you say “against war in general”, what phenomena exactly are you referring to?
War in general is the concept that everyone has: War is expensive, messy and deadly. Peace is nicer. There are many peace groups that rather than understand the workings of war or the reasons for it and the various levels it operates on, just march with rainbows and stick flowers in gun barrels. It's symbolic and it does not do anything at all. You mentioned the important word : DISRUPT. This is what needs to be done and anti-war movements have left that principle aside. They don't seem to analyse causes or come up with an approach that is effective.
Almost all peace groups are like that and the reason is a stupid one, "so that we can be inclusive". I am of the same school of thought of Remy Kenazi: If the antiwar movement doesn't want to involve Palestine, then screw the antiwar movement. It becomes meaningless at least to me. It is suitable for someone like my 11 year old daughter who draws pictures of children holding hands and this means peace. It's the unicorns, flowers and rainbows of peace activism that I feel eludes any concrete steps because it would not look nice or it could mean that people have to actually challenge the system which they are part of.
Just one more example: this weekend in my own town there is a "peace fair" that is being held. We are one of the most popular vacation towns in Europe, so there will be hundreds of thousands who will be in town just to enjoy the place. They will see stands for various peace movments. When I found out about it, I called the organiser and said I wanted to book a stand for Palestine and he said "we already have one" and I asked who it was, and it was a Christian movement. Ok, fine. Nothing against them, but their whole thing is to endorse this vague idea of peace and they think it's a religious war of Jews against Muslims… anyway, I have seen their material in the past, and it's very soft, therefore, stuff that I don't think will move towards peace three centimetres.
2) your points about Palestinian Israelis is well taken. I admit that they are excluded from society in a lot of ways, but I also feel that they should not be forgotten as important parts of Palestinian society and that if people adopt the construct that they belong to the same people, are part of the Arab nation as well, it can bring a lot of clarity to what people understand, which is that Israel is a place where only Jews live and that is the way Israelis want it to stay. I also know a lot of exiled people from places like Nazareth and Jerusalem, and they can't even get back to their homes. They are yet another category, since they are not refugees but are simply denied going back home. Anyway, the issue is quite complex and needs to be addressed from many angles.
a bit more on my statement that orgs or movements actually have a negative influence on panhuman progress.
it seems to me that people think, Oh, well, there is an org like Prevention of Animal Cruelty, which looks after this problem, so i don`t need to be with this org.
or one might think, Oh, well i am a dummy and wld be just an obstacle or wld say s`mthing stupid, etc.
people might say, In addition, we all know that movements or orgs achieve so much. Pols respect and listen to orgs and movements.
if my analyses are correct or corrrect for most of such orgs or peace groups, then it shows or even proves that such groups have a negatiev effect.
often groups selves think highly of selves; stressing their importance, etc.
so why, now so many more crimes while all these peace groups are around. sorry, my query and some other marks don`t work.
i`d also like the science to get into this. tnx
This is a good question, why we all fail on solidarity when we all have one aim – to make our world better.
The key idea of such forums is to enable all of us to work together even if there are big gaps between us. the process of manifestation any idea of any of us is complex and full of risks and compromise.
we have one future to share, we can only do it with mutual respect recognizing our differences.
Neri, you are one of the biggest hypocrites I have ever seen. You talk about "these forums" enable "us to work together" and you are the one rooting for the banning of me, Eva, John W and went around abusing Nahida and now are posting photos and comments of people who have left or have not joined MePeace.
Is that fair? Is it even NORMAL? No. Not in any ordinary way of doing things. But I have also said, if you want to play here, you start first by addressing the stuff in my article or the issues in my comments. You won't do it, so I can only say, I'll have to ask Haitham to add your name back on the ban list, since you refuse to "dialogue" unless you are gatekeeping and setting the rules. You cooperate with what has been requested or we show you the door.
Dear Marry,
It is pleasure to see that you wish dialog.
we actually dialogging and giving names to each other for long time.
while I am willing to talk, you call me "one of the biggest hypocrites " (thank you, you are nice). so here you do exactly what you blame the Zionists do in their forums.
So do you willing to drop the name droping and blame and talk, or you unable to talk with me and all you wish is to ban me, because I do not agree with what you said.
I am going more toward what Mazin Qumsiyeh say: "Indeed it is sad that there are some even on this forum who continue to think we must wait for other parts of the world to shed their hate and tribalism and get along before we do. This despite all the evidence that thsi might be the last place on earth where people cling to those stupidities so adamantly. While I am optimistic, we should all work to speed up the process since every day in the life of this apartheid that is shortened or if we get there a bit earlier, we would have saved countless lives (daily people are dying here or at least not fully living)."
my view is similar
we should all work to speed up the process since every day in the life of this violence-dance that is shortened or if we get there a bit earlier, we would have saved countless lives (daily people are dying here or at least not fully living).
this is what important.
@Neri Bar-On –
Dear Marry,
(don't you realise we request you do not call us "dear".)
It is pleasure to see that you wish dialog.
(I have always wished for dialogue and you have avoided the rules of dialogue back when I knew you on MePeace and you CONTINUE to violate rules of fair play. One example? Sy told me you reprinted this on MePeace! The discourse or "dialogue" is HERE, not there, where I am not even allowed to post, basically with your total approval and support of it, and again, rarely considering the arguments in themselves but throwing out your sales pitches that I and others find unacceptable. How is that dialogue? What are you trying to do? To establish your role of leader and networker on another venue. It's not anything that interests me, so why bring it there? Just tell people to come here, but then, no, they would see the way your arguments are dissected for their frailty.)
we actually dialogging and giving names to each other for long time.
(I think you have only ever said do it my way or you are looking forward to more Killed Palestinian babies. This is unacceptable, and I tell you so. You have called me many names, yes. But mostly put concepts out as if they were mine when they are not. It's a trick and you are not even good at it. You unfairly discuss other people when they cannot intervene and even show their photos. This is a violation of their rights. You don't care.)
while I am willing to talk, you call me "one of the biggest hypocrites " (thank you, you are nice). so here you do exactly what you blame the Zionists do in their forums.
(I call you a hypocrite because that is what you are. Feigning beliefs, virtues or feelings that you do not possess. It is a definition of you, not a name calling. It is how many of us see you and it is exposed with every intervention you make. You seem to live on internet, so one can maybe call it some kind of obsession, but people don't like to be stalked on internet. People ask one to address the content of what is being expressed, and you don't and won't do it. People tell you that you can't post their materials when they are prohibited from even interacting, and it is obscene to discuss folks who have not even entered into discourse, creating a mobbing against them a priori, as you do with many and as you've done with Tali. You in this way violate the virtues of a partner for discourse. I know what I am saying and you are the blinded one, Neri.)
So do you willing to drop the name droping and blame and talk, or you unable to talk with me and all you wish is to ban me, because I do not agree with what you said.
(I don't accept your rules. I don't have to. I say things as they are, you act like a hypocrite, I say you are one. I don't accept your definition of blame and you NEVER responded to the comments your guru made about it being the Arabs who made palestinians leave… things like that… I have told you that if you are going to come here, you address the points made. I must have said it ten times! You accuse me of holding off your comments, of other actions that are untrue and still, you insist on being here according to your rules? It's not your forum, and if you want to participate, you have to follow the indications. You have been warned. I don't really care about you agreeing with me. all you want is normalisation of things, and the isolation of resistance and certain voices who do not agree that you are right, and I know you will never agree with me. Your presence here would only be welcome if you are interested in COMMENTING ON THE POINTS OF THE ARTICLE and then RESPONDING TO SPECIFIC QUERIES IN THE COMMENTS. Anything else is tiring, and we have no need for you to come here just to think it gives you the right to reprint what you want.)
I am going more toward what Mazin Qumsiyeh say: "Indeed it is sad that there are some even on this forum who continue to think we must wait for other parts of the world to shed their hate and tribalism and get along before we do. This despite all the evidence that thsi might be the last place on earth where people cling to those stupidities so adamantly. While I am optimistic, we should all work to speed up the process since every day in the life of this apartheid that is shortened or if we get there a bit earlier, we would have saved countless lives (daily people are dying here or at least not fully living)."
my view is similar
(your view is self-loving, you are constantly putting up posts, commenting on them yourself alone and then spamming with the same pet phrases. I don't think you have moved a millimetre towards understanding the situation from another point of view. Your job is to tell everyone what the Israeli view is and that we have to adapt).
we should all work to speed up the process since every day in the life of this violence-dance that is shortened or if we get there a bit earlier, we would have saved countless lives (daily people are dying here or at least not fully living).
this is what important.
(are you going to stick by my rules or will this be your last posting here?)
Dear Mary,
You are full pleasure, I write here in the context of the post, and relate to its content. I show that you are using the same "1) Isolate opinions that are not to their liking, and in our case, ones that directly cite Israeli responsibility. These opinions are "imposed" as being off topic, irrelevant, beyond the pale, etc. The opinion is then discarded very rapidly and the gatekeeper cuts to a very routine "attack the person who did that", leading to point two:" here against my views.
you say "I call you a hypocrite because that is what you are. Feigning beliefs, virtues or feelings that you do not possess. It is a definition of you, not a name calling. It is how many of us see you and it is exposed with every intervention you make."
So I call you Dear, As I see your pain and self doubt expressed in any aggressive statment you give, You are the pain of palestine, so I cann you Dear, is the rule is that you give me names you like but you do not accept names I like?
check this out, so you still think I " mostly put concepts out as if they were yours when they are not. It's a trick and I are not even good at it. "
but the cream is you end statement."(are you going to stick by my rules or will this be your last posting here?) "
So now you would not dare to publish it, unless you are blind that every one here will see how unfair, manipulative dear person you are.
where are the rules I am breaking, are you like Iqbal invent rules to ban people and declare "here we do not have democracy"?
Neri asks:
why we all fail on solidarity when we all have one aim – to make our world better?
Simple answer:
zionists make every effort to persuade people that Palestinians' world only becomes better at the expense of yours. Simply put, if Palestinians' right to return to their land stolen from them 61 years ago (by your previous generations) is realized, this will lead to the destruction of israel (as an exclusively jewish state).
Palestinians are a reality and they have keys in their hands and one day (be it in the near future in sha allah) they will return to their homes. And in this think tank many people discuss the ways to reach this goal. Then how can you speak of a "one shared aim", when what you say and what you propose is an obstacle in realizing this goal?
@Mary Rizzo –
Sigh Mary, I know that phenomena. Then the right comes along and calls me naive… As if the question can’t we all just get along has no merit. And since obviously we can’t, I say go for the disruption- non-violent terrorism is possible and personally, I find it inspiring.
You are spot-on. You can’t be anti-war and not include Palestine (or any other armed conflict)- it really shows a lack of understanding of the connections between the reality of the world. I have a good friend who calls Zionism “the biggest real estate scam in history”. It’s always about the money and property.
About the up coming fair- just an idea, why not talk with the Christian group and see if you can get in on the action? Or just distribute your own fliers- who needs a stand?
About Palestinians around the world and in Israel proper, I’ll say it again- it’s our responsibility. When they see the world is on their side, they’ll strengthen. Palestinian nationality is a strange issue. From what I saw at my visit to the Bank, it seems they don’t care for the idea of a state, they just want their freedom and to live in peace (and not an official one, because they couldn’t care less about politicians and declarations).
@bozhidar –
Bozh, I think someone that might say “Oh, well, there is an org like Prevention of Animal Cruelty, which looks after this problem, so i don`t need to be with this org.”, wouldn’t have joined anyway.
Someone who says “Oh, well i am a dummy and wld be just an obstacle or wld say s`mthing stupid”- I can blame the org for that, because they don’t explain their cause well enough. Education is the basic aim of an org, not getting through on that front is a huge failure.
You can’t (you can do what you like- it’s just a figure of speech
) blame the orgs for all the crimes that are committed – they didn’t commit them. And again, you can’t expect to save every child, the powers that be are huge. They are ingrained in the system and the culture. Culture of dissent is so often hidden and suppressed. One of the fights is writing up the history and passing along a culture of resistance to our children. A friend just told me how quickly after her own struggle, she went into a normal life. It’s what humans naturally do. We just want to have our children have a normal life. The problem with that is that we pass onto them the delusion that everything is alright. And when they face their own struggle, they’ll have to relearn everything.
Dear Ali,
when you see reality as Zionists that claim all for themselves you get war, because palestinians cannot accept that. you do the same, you are claim conditions that do not let Israeli accept.
you may seek total justice, but you doom palestinian to fight one of the strongest power in the region. you know the price in Palestinian lives and you expect all palestinian to accept your ideas, otherwise you call them pro-Zionists or traitors.
Mazin Qumsiyeh say:we should all work to speed up the process since every day in the life of this apartheid that is shortened or if we get there a bit earlier, we would have saved countless lives (daily people are dying here or at least not fully living)."
put your energy in building schools, creating palestinian industry, bringing palestinians to unity.
@Neric Bar-On – Neri, I think you're not capable of seeing the other side. Just my opinion. You are also incapable of understanding that the majority of Palestinians don't give a shit about governmental peace. They only want their missing dunams back, so they can work their land and provide for their children. How this infringes on Israelis is beyond me.
I will ask of you one more thing, on a personal note. Please don't talk about Iqbal, she's a woman of true integrity and she's not here to defend herself. It's offensive to me and though I won't talk for anyone else, I'm sure it's offensive to others who participated in this conversation.
@Tali –
no, an org or movement is not responsible to a large degree for a person's disinterest in or fear of an org.
massive miseducation is solely or largely responsible for that.
i do not know how many peace groups there are. 'Jews' have few. Why few, when we cld have one educating people?
of course, educating the ruling class wld be much better. I do not think the ruling class reads my posts or education by a group.
the reason for disunion among peace groups is that each may be overly singular and thus cannot be educational.
an org, to be educational, must study all ills that befall us and not just peace in one region or a pet peeve.
power, as mao [among many] has noted comes from barrel of the gun. To bring peace; let's say, in palestine, one needs power and not education.
we've had education for centuries. Ruling classes have it! But children in schools don't get it.
power by any group to bring peace in kashmir, afpak is nigh zero. None possess even a pistol.
presently a peace group may only reach 000001% of world pop. And if it misteaches by leaving out such salient facts as deleterious effect of religions and most governances, it presents a fictitious reality.
and no one can adapt to a fiction; one may adapt only to reality. bozhidar balkas tnx
@Neric Bar-On –
the fact is that the right to return to one's home, regardless why one left it , is our second dearest panhuman right.
lamenting now about this right is to late and quite casuistic. We cannot give up on this right! If we do, others may do what 'zionists' have done.
and 'zionists' were fully cognizant that part given to them by evil empires cld never house all ther 'jews' or offer high style of living. They also knew that palestinians wld want to return to their homes after the war of '47 wld be over.
and 'zionists' knew they wld never allowed their return.
and pals are not fighting IOF; it is the other way around. Pals have no tanks, artillery, naval ships, jets, helis, army, etc. 'Jews' have all that! balkas tnx
NERI: Dear Mary,
(there you go again… we ask you to not call us dear, even if you want to. Why not respect that if you keep acting as if respect is what you are all about?)
NERI: You are full pleasure, I write here in the context of the post, and relate to its content.
(No, you do not. You just say, she stays stuff that is not true… she is the one doing it! You know I am talking about the specific boards, and you avoid talking about them. I tell you it is TOTALLY unacceptable to do the kind of spamming and stalking you do, also part of this article, and you do PRECISELY that and print interventions of people who you were happy enough to have banned and talk about them knowing they cannot intervene. It's nuts!)
NERI: I show that you are using the same "1) Isolate opinions that are not to their liking, and in our case, ones that directly cite Israeli responsibility. These opinions are "imposed" as being off topic, irrelevant, beyond the pale, etc. The opinion is then discarded very rapidly and the gatekeeper cuts to a very routine "attack the person who did that", leading to point two:" here against my views.
you say "I call you a hypocrite because that is what you are. Feigning beliefs, virtues or feelings that you do not possess. It is a definition of you, not a name calling. It is how many of us see you and it is exposed with every intervention you make."
(you did NOT address the content of our disagreements. You insinuate we love getting rubber bullets and we are happy to see Palestinian babies killed and that if we don't think like you do, more Palestinians will suffer.. I tell you, on the other hand, your responses demonstrate that you can't stay on topic without calling people masochists or sadists and the fact that you act hypocritically is that you use these ploys and at the same time deny doing it!)
NERI: So I call you Dear, As I see your pain and self doubt expressed in any aggressive statment you give, You are the pain of palestine, so I cann you Dear, is the rule is that you give me names you like but you do not accept names I like?
(dear is something that one reserves for those they connect with. I find that you imposing endearment on people who have asked you to refrain from it a sort of harassment.)
NERI: check this out, so you still think I " mostly put concepts out as if they were yours when they are not. It's a trick and I are not even good at it. "
(of course you do, you just did that with Ali: "you may seek total justice, but you doom palestinian to fight one of the strongest power in the region. you know the price in Palestinian lives and you expect all palestinian to accept your ideas, otherwise you call them pro-Zionists or traitors." Yes. Ali seeks total justice. You call it dooming Palestinians to fight the strongest power. If Israel gives them justice, then Palestinians will not need to fight any longer. You then tell him HE is costing Palestinians their lives, HE imposes it on everyone.. tis the other way round, lad. You just can't see how you talk, can you? this is why you are not good at it.)
NERI: but the cream is you end statement."(are you going to stick by my rules or will this be your last posting here?) "
So now you would not dare to publish it, unless you are blind that every one here will see how unfair, manipulative dear person you are.
where are the rules I am breaking, are you like Iqbal invent rules to ban people and declare "here we do not have democracy"?
(this site belongs to Haitham, Gilad and me. Until further notice, we set the rules for interaction because it is not a NING. That means, if you insist upon not using netiquette and spamming, accusing me every five minutes, insisting upon a familiarity that we ask you to not use, quit putting words in our mouths and mainly address the points in these comments and since you call the article a smear… then debate it! Write your own rebuttal point by point! You don't do it, and the funny thing is, you must know it's true deep down, because MAZIN, who you now try to quote over and over out of context, agrees with this analysis and those against it are the Uberzios Kahane and Reti, and they won't even go into the content, but just attack me… quite telling. As Tali says, you can't accuse Iqbal of things because you violated rules by spamming personal info from her NING to MePeace without any permission asked. It is unacceptable. How would you like your photo and information you posted to your own group put where you know people will make fun of you or put you down? It is wrong and if you don't know it then you better grow up fast.
@Mary Rizzo –
Thank you Mary for continue posting me, please post my post directly and not edited as you do.
you are right that many will not even get into discourse with you, because the ones who do get their photo and information you posted .
You demand democratic process from others, but you say (as Iqbal did) "this site belongs to Haitham, Gilad and me. Until further notice, we set the rules for interaction because it is not a NING. "
there is nothing in NING that disable you to set the rules as Iqbal, and no one doubt agaist ownership of the site.
Please note, as I told you many times that I never violated rules by spamming personal info from her NING to MePeace. you did publish the name and connection but you wish no one to know. I posted Nahida text as it was published without personal details (I used her fake identity she use in mepeace). more then that, it was all published in public and I copy it as you copy any other texts to show a point.
@Mary Rizzo –
Thank you Mary for continue posting me, please post my post directly and not edited as you do.
(I have all of your content up and what's this stuff about not edited as you do? I never have edited the interventions you have sent it. If I did, would they look the same to you? What are you on about again???)
you are right that many will not even get into discourse with you, because the ones who do get their photo and information you posted .
(huh? You are the one who posts up photos of Fahkir who left your group. That is totally unacceptable. I don't post people's photos up. Try a real argument)
You demand democratic process from others, but you say (as Iqbal did) "this site belongs to Haitham, Gilad and me. Until further notice, we set the rules for interaction because it is not a NING. "
(I don't demand democratic process from anyone. How could I? I demand that if you insist on being here just to talk about me, you at least address THE POINTS SUCH AS BECK, THE POINTS IN THE ARTICLE, AND THERE ARE MANY and anything of substance. You refuse to do it. Obviously, the site is run by three peope who are not you, so you can't set the rules, nor has it been set up as a Ning that is supposed to theoretically allow personal blogs, which get eliminated by the gatekeepers if they so choose. There's a difference.)
there is nothing in NING that disable you to set the rules as Iqbal, and no one doubt agaist ownership of the site.
Please note, as I told you many times that I never violated rules by spamming personal info from her NING to MePeace.
(Untrue. You published things Eva wrote after leaving MePeace, as well as other comments from people who are not even IN MePeace. You insist upon talking behind the backs of those who are not there and you use material they have left on other boards. Look, even a child knows this is against netiquette! You are doing it now with your gatekeeping of my article which you posted up on MePeace, without the guts to post up ALL the interventions here, creating a false impression of what is going on here, and how no one is supporting your way of acting. Try to think about it).
you did publish the name and connection but you wish no one to know. I posted Nahida text as it was published without personal details (I used her fake identity she use in mepeace). more then that, it was all published in public and I copy it as you copy any other texts to show a point.
(can't you see it is not a normal way to behave? To take someone who is polemical with the tyrannical decision made by the Israeli members of the board and then to post more material by her, trying to "explain her away" As well, all you do is criticise Palestinian Mothers, because it actually has a more vibrant and dedicated community. You do not have any moral rights to publish material from another person's personal space on a NING without asking them if you can do it. You refuse to play by the rules. That is because you think you make them wherever you go. Now answer the Beck questions.)
Reply – Quote
Hi Mary, Tali and all others,
I'm following this thread, reading it, but not replying much. I know Neri in person, not very closely, though. What I am reading here and have always read from him on mepeace, makes me seriously doubt about his mental capacities. I don't mean that he's stupid, but I think he's so brainwashed that he's unable to understand what you are all writing. I think he's serious in his replies. I think he believes that he's honest and good, and not lying, spamming, disrespectful etc.. What I mean is that he BELIEVES that he's right, that he's honest, that he's doing the right thing – and unable to understand what you all say about "respect", about "right and wrong", about Zionist attitudes and deeds, about Palestinian rights and all the rest.
Without knowing him, if I was just reading this thread from more distance, I would say you're all losing your time, that this person has limited mental capacities. As I know him, I just say that these "limited mental capacities" are the effect of deep Zionist brainwashing. And by the way, he's also influenced by his belief in "global spiral thinking" or whatever it's called. As you know, Mary, we have a common friend who is also into this guru stuff, and I sometimes have very big troubles to communicate with him, too.
In short, what I'm trying to say is that Neri is totally unable to understand what you're saying – that maybe he's not doing it on purpose, but that he's truly "out of reality". That's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth
@Eva Ferrero –
Dear Eva (and I do mean dear, you are endeared within me in spite of our past difficulties)
I think you are spot on. As we say here, "He just doesn't arrive", meaning, it's not in his capabilities to be able to think in a different way and he is really convinced that what he says and does is all very good and decent, even when you point out examples.
So, yes, it is a total waste of time. Thanks for putting some sense into me!
Neri, I advise you to watch the Doha Debates show, aired on Wednesday, March 28 2007.
You can find it here:
http://www.thedohadebates.com/debates/past.asp?s=3
The subject of the debate:
Should the Palestinians give up their full right of return?
Panelists agreeing this idea:
Bassem Eid, Director, Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group
Yossi Beilin, Member of the Israeli Knesset
Panelists against the idea:
Ilan Pappe, Senior Lecturer of Political Science, Haifa University
Ali Abunimah, Co-founder, The Electronic Intifada
The result:
The idea was rejected by 18.4% to 81.6%
As you can see, we have 2 Palestinian panelists (one for and one against the idea) and also 2 israeli panelists (again, one for and one against the idea).
The idea that Palestinians would be better off if they forget about their right of return, even when one of their own (Bassem Eid) argues that "full right of return" is not worth fighting for, is not bought by a majority of them.
You wrote: "when you see reality as Zionists that claim all for themselves you get war."
I see that regrettably 'war' is the first option coming to your mind. When people see the reality the way they see, zionists go to 'war' if they are not pleased with the viewpoint.
You wrote: "you may seek total justice, but you doom palestinian to fight one of the strongest power in the region."
Well, you fell short of adding "the most brutal and ruthless power" to your description of israel. But let me remind you that the israeli army was ridiculed in the course of 33-day 'war' with Hezbollah.
You wrote: "you are claim conditions that do not let Israeli accept."
It's as ridiculous as when zionists argue that israelis 'accepted' the partition plan and the Palestinians rejected it.
An structure based on an unjust foundation is doomed to collapse. We should prevent as more people as we can from being buried under the ruins of this structured when it collapses at last.
@Ali – beautifully said! and a great link- thanks
@Eva Ferrero – beautifully diagnosed. Maybe one day Neri will be able to sit down and listen. As for my time, the more bashed Zionist dreams are documented on line- the happier I am about my time.
@bozh –
"no, an org or movement is not responsible to a large degree for a person's disinterest in or fear of an org.
massive miseducation is solely or largely responsible for that."
I see what you mean and I agree. However, clever orgs, that know how to utilize this misseducation grow huge. The most astonishing example I know is PeTA. They use the lowest techniques in the capitalist books and it works, in unbelievable numbers.
"i do not know how many peace groups there are. 'Jews' have few. Why few, when we cld have one educating people?
the reason for disunion among peace groups is that each may be overly singular and thus cannot be educational.
an org, to be educational, must study all ills that befall us and not just peace in one region or a pet peeve."
I think if you look at each non-zionist Israeli ("Israeli" for the sake of clear argument) group, they all have a different function to fill. They aren't "peace" groups- that would be futile. Examples: MachsomWatch documents the checkpoints, Btselem documents general abuses, New Profile takes care of Israeli youth who refuse enlistment, Anarchists Against The Wall join the Palestinian protest. Each one does their thing. Though I do agree, they should coalize. This over-factioned activism doesn't have much voice.
"of course, educating the ruling class wld be much better. I do not think the ruling class reads my posts or education by a group."
Now that would be a true revolution
"power, as mao [among many] has noted comes from barrel of the gun. To bring peace; let's say, in palestine, one needs power and not education.
we've had education for centuries. Ruling classes have it! But children in schools don't get it.
power by any group to bring peace in kashmir, afpak is nigh zero. None possess even a pistol."
Tell me more about this. How do you see it coming about?
"presently a peace group may only reach 000001% of world pop. And if it misteaches by leaving out such salient facts as deleterious effect of religions and most governances, it presents a fictitious reality.
and no one can adapt to a fiction; one may adapt only to reality. bozhidar balkas tnx "
agreed
Ali,
thank you for your respond, the question of right of return is complex, the idea I support is that the rights of return cost for the Palestinian need to be evaluated with other options to enable the Palestinians get out of the current situation. I belive that after two state solution state we can work together to have confederation where we reduce the religious ethno-centric elements we have in our nations for the benefit of all citizens.
Did you listende to Bassem Eid who live in refugee camp?
Do you justify people like Mary rizzo and Gilad Azmon, Ilan pepe have equal right to express the needs of the palestinains as Bassem Eid.
Can you see that the Palestinian violent resistance is a war call as well, fighting from Gaza with 2.5Kg bombs against 1Ton is stupid strategy that hostage many palestinian civilians in war zone.
you say : israeli army was ridiculed in the course of 33-day 'war' with Hezbollah.
This is how you see it, I am not sure the Lebanese experience it as a victory and you can see that the Gazan's heroes who claim to be prepared for Israeli attack also claim victory.
their victory is count of dead innocent Arabs by the Jews. this is not respected perspective and the honor of Palestinian home Key is seem to be more important then children life.
the current situation is not fair, and we need to cooperate to change Israel society and Palestinian society to be resilient from this extremist fanatics who want to win all. Palestinians who do not see the Israeli perspective and expect peace to be when Israel will stop being Jewish are the same as Israeli settlers who do not see the Palestinian perspective and expect peace to be when palestinians will stop being resistive to occupation. both seek one state solution and both fight the needed stage of two state.
@Tali –
power can change things for better or worse. Econo-military-political power in US is in the hands of a gang.
we've never ever had anything else for millennia but gang rule in perhaps all lands. If my analyses are correct, then letting people know this might change things for the better.
in short, only enlighenment can save the world.
since the ruling classes are in nature ganglike, gangs wld never allow knowledge to get to the kids.
internet, going door to door, passing leaflets, etc., offers us the best chance to educate .tnx
@bozh – @bozh – But Bozh, this is exactly what orgs do!
Tali, I think I know what Bozh refers to by organisations. Most of them have an enormously high overhead, paid staff and they want to get as many members as possible, therefore, they do not take a stance that is going to in some way "isolate" someone. For instance, the No War movement dropped off the radar, why?? because they had decided to focus just on getting Bush out (which was going to happen anyway) and all energy got deflected to campaigning for Obama. They also did not want to ever touch the Palestinian situation. It would "isolate" those who didn't have time to really investigate what is happening.
A few years ago, we raised money for an ad here in a Communist newspaper of wide diffusion, against the Iraq war. So many folks were saying they wanted this line cut out or that one (naturally, the lines about resistance.. this is the ultimate dirty word of our era) and in the end, not wanting to cut out anything, we had to go for a tiny little ad. The same is true of Amnesty (what do they care about the Palestinian prisoners?) or feminist movements (they will talk only about how bad Muslims are in their view) , or about Human Rights Watch. There is a huge limit all of these groups have.
This is why grassroots activism has to have as its basis discourse. That means that we network and find the few or hopefully many, folks who are sharing strategies, information and support. I have found that even a little site like this makes a difference. Remember that Erdogan got on that stage and quoting a line from an article Gilad wrote, told Shimon Peres that the war against Gaza was murder. This gave many people around the world a sense of empowerment. It's possible that our discourse is going to become the mainstream discourse, that is why we can't water it down to suit the masses. The masses will start to ask for justice themselves, and then no one can stop them.
Neri, Bassem Eid can renounce his own right, but he can't decide to invalidate the rights of millions of others, he simply hasn't got the power to do so, although the idea sounds so attractive to you. In fact, 86.1 percent of the public decided that it was not appropriate to abdicate rights, including this particular right.
Why you are so against rights and then go on and on about duties and responsibilities is just a way to whitewash crime and bring about normalisation that will assure that no progress is ever made.
Besides, you only see the alternative as : do as I (Israel) thinks is right and you will avoid war.. if you make any other choice, war is all you can expect from us. Why do you think we don't trust any of you?
@Mary Rizzo – I see what you're saying Mary. I also see these flaws in Amnesty for example, wasting their time on bullshit Obama campaigns. But it makes sense that big orgs are more all-inclusive and the little ones are radical (most probably as a response). That's why I keep talking about coalitions. And if the big ones won't have us, we need to organize all us little radicals. But organizing is important, giving up on orgs all together seems fatal. I mean, in the end, you won't have any movement unless you have an organizing of people. In the end I basically agree with you- the discourse has got to change. But we definitely need to organize with like minded people. I find it hard to understand why there are so many tiny groups working on the Palestinian cause and hardly no coalition between them (even on facebook alone!). We could be a huge and empowered global group, instead we are shreds and pieces. Why did it take me 6 months to find this site (which I think is tremendous!)? All these sites should lead to one another, the people should know each other. The empowerment is in the masses.
@Bar-On Neri –
the right of return doesn't infringe on your right to be Jewish. And no one will be kicked out of their homes. Obviously, once the right of return is established, many more technical considerations will be taken. Such as reparations, compensations and anything else Palestinians may need. But if you want a democratic state, it can't be a Jewish state- that's an oxymoron. You can't compare Israel becoming a democratic state to Palestinian's resistance- that's simply illogical.
A two-state solution is not an option. Maybe a cooling down period, in which Israel ends occupation and allows Palestinians to recover and work and integrate back into the system. But if you have two separate states, how do you propose to undo that and make it into one?
Dear Tali,
Your comments are all spot on. I can just add this: why we are fragmented? Because we obviously can't compromise on what we consider to be the key issues. For PTT and some others they are: Priority of the Right of Return, no imposition of "secularism" or any other condition upon the free choice of the Palestinian people, support of the principle of resistance as it is clearly regulated in international law, freedom of political prisoners, refusal of normalisation with Israel until there is an end to checkpoints, elimination of restrictions on movement of Palestinians (including those in exile not permitted entry, those in the refugee camps and in the OPTs). There are some who won't go by one or more of these points. In that case, rather than say, there are things that we can work together on, have decided to attack us. I am not kidding: our most "vocal" opponents are who??? people in these "peace" groups, some Jewish anti-Zionists (they will not for 5 seconds realise that no one can impose their secularism on a people in the middle east or anywhere else), and others who obstensibly could coalise with us. Rather than work together, they sue us, defame us and smear us. This is how it works. This is why we've said back in 2000 (an article that I wrote that was widely disseminated in Italy) "The Palestinian Peace and Rights Movement is Dead? It was never born". And in the years I have noticed this happen over and over.
It's a problem that needs to be faced. But a start is to consider the priorities and not budge, just like the civil rights people in the USA of the 60s. "We will not be moved" was the slogan of a mural on the building opposite my own building, which was the home of some supporters of Malcolm X (the Black Muslims have their headquarters in Chicago, and despite what many try to say, they are not racists and they do not wish to sow discord, but to obtain rights for their people, in this case, the urban black population). This is what we do here, and we are glad you found us! Together everyone who sees things in these ways will find a way in their own sphere of influence to bring the discourse forward. We actually do have many networks and connections, and if one investigates, they will find them. We refuse no one who wants the things we listed above. But… we counter anyone who refuses to admit that the Palestinian struggle for liberation should be lead by Palestinians and the rest of us have an obligation to help and follow… We have to have the humility to take a role of one of the wheels, not sit in the driver's seat. The main problem with most activists (I've mentioned this many times) is that they insist upon driving the vehicle where they want it for their own reasons, even if these violate rights of Palestinians. We don't get on those vehicles and those drivers are throwing broken glass on the road that stands before us.
That I am a person with no religion, that Gilad is religious in his own way, that Haitham is a practicing Muslim has nothing to do with our views that we share 100% regarding liberation struggles, and this is the thing we share with our other contributors and with many of the people who are site regulars. We are on the same page and none of us want to impose our private beliefs on anyone, even if we would personally like it to be secular!!! What we personally want is of zero importance. What counts is the choice of the Palestinian majority. This is (believe it or not,) considered to be unacceptable by a vocal and very aggressive number of activists. They want it secular or they call us "fundamentalists". This is the way almost all the bigger organisations work. They do this because Islam gets bad press, because they think it's the only way to appease the Jewish activists… whatever the reason, it's just wrong.
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/08/01/my-farewell-to-mepeace/
interesting. check it out!
Tali,
I also see two state stage as an element of building united future for all people of the region the new comers Jews as for Palestinian refugees. The dynamic of such change is frigle, just think of reactions of people who reject the idea of solution that respect both side, few bombs (israel or palestinian) and we are back to where we are today, if not worst. this is why two state stage is important.
by creating confederation that will melt of borders in the future we have our social values, keeping religion out from political governance and making sure all babies get fair equal share of opportunities (male and female Jews and Arabs) and the economic stability are important forces to bring us there.
but for any change we need trust, we need unconditional trust that we respect each other and do not think that you have conspiracy to destroy what is important to the other side.
for us, the Israelis the confederation is extra– important because as me and you think that the Jewish-centric element in Israel is dangerous and need to be updated to more global view to enable free democracy (and breaking all borders with our brothers Arabs).
so check your logic and the practicality of ideas about progressing the arab-israeli relationship, don't work from ideology this is what the Zionist did and see where they got us to be responsible for as Israelis.
Mary,
You , as Mazin do think "human rights" is some kind of 20th century religion that we all need to bow on it. but the issue of rights is more complex, because not only the palestinians has rights, so are the Israelis, and not just the Israelis has duties – the palestinians has duties too.
so when you only talk about Palestinian rights, you can argue and have support for your argument but the whole human system do recognize the complexity.
this is why I propose to focus on human duty and not human right:
I do not think the right argument work for us; The zionist never had the right to come to palestine. They did it.
The issue of rights as some describe it as "word of god" is actually a tactic to get a position in negotiation; but Israel clearly hold the power position.
In Moral Issue I ask about the duty. when we bring issues of morality we need to check whos the duty, because the duti have responsibility to make sure something happened.
So Israel has responsibility toward the Palestinians problems, even if they call them enemies. and this is the human duty we have. it does not matter if these are Palestinians who hate you or arabs who lave you. we as a collective have duty to solve the problems. and the territorial problem of the palestinians would best solve in one state solution; but the cost of one state solution with the memories and pain we have now can create cause and risk stability of both societies.
Israel has a duty to remove any obstacle if it is settlements and Jerusalem, assuming as releasing prisoners and making compassion for the lost property.
saying all that on the Israelis duties, what are the Palestinians duties?
@Mary Rizzo –
What I hate is that when people mention the Panthers, they forget the last part of the name: "Self Defense". It's a smear campaign that isn't unique to the Panthers. The problem, as Bozh says is education that is controlled by the ruler class.
I see your/my problem. This is definitely something to be settled while coalizing. But I'm thinking big movements can still be used in some way. Swaying the center to the left is also a goal- look at the realities today, when the center is swayed right. As you said- they must appease all kinds of strange fascist factions (erm… OK, I embellished your words a little
). This is an absurdity! No one should be appeasing people who have no respect for human rights.
As to driving the wagon- agreed. That's why I made it a point to meet with Palestinians. Otherwise you find yourself insulting and hurting people, rather than helping out. Because, let's face it, we took it upon ourselves to speak in their name- we better know what they want. As an Israeli, of course I have my own desires as to what I want to happen, but they all stem from Palestinian freedom, so I owe them my ear and heart.
About the link- what I always find fascinating is the comments after one of these posts. And sure enough, MePeace creators and organizer, repeating their mistakes. I kinda lost the point of even discussing these people, at this point. When I see them at a protest, maybe we'll have something to talk about. 'Till then, let's move on from the pointless.
someone who is a lurker on MePeace just told me that Neri's posts here are cut and paste spamming. That he copies over and over again the same points and posts them in various places and even here. He said even the spelling mistakes are identical.
Why are you doing it Neri? And, as I said privately, if you don't reprint all the comments and also this link, then you paint a very biased and unrealistic picture of this discourse. If you aren't going to handle it in the way that normal people do, as if every space is your spamming platform, just don't even bother. I will not allow the blocked comments through (and they block because you do not use the same identification information, there are at least 7 or 8 different ones on this thread alone) because I don't have time to waste. Besides, as you say, who cares about what an Italian Jew thinks? Why do I even bother reasoning with you. You are the only one whose opinion matters. How could i dare forget!?
btw, human rights are simply rights that all humans have or should. Stuff like freedom of movement, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom to not be arbitrarily arrested and held without trial. What is so horrible about them? That Israelis know they are being denied to those people they occupy and this makes them change the argument to "duties" and then to duties of Palestinians?
@Tali –
you won't see them at a protest, baby! they are into meeting for coffee with like-minded (pro-normalisation) people.
@Tali –
well, i live in vancouver, b.c. Thus, i'll restrict my observations only to vancouver. Many orgs phone me asking for money for this or that. All are singualar.
i was active member of StopWar.ca. However, of some 300+ members only a few of us passed leaflets objecting to coming iraqi invasion.
and nobody went door to door.
even tho our platform was very narrow; mostly objecting to wars of aggression to solve int'l disputes we went thru a massive dissenssion.
StopWar was not educational, either. Obviously it cldn't be if a number of maladies are left unsaid or banned from discussion. At least some of the 'jews' wld object to talking about judaistic role in the euro-palestinan conflict.
i have an open mind. Show me the education of a group that is universal and enlightening in nature. I know of no org that is. EG, amnesty international is not a multipurpose org; it seems to largely or solely seek less punishment for individuals. more cld be said. tnx
@bozh –
I lived in the US when Amnesty was a rather new thing. I loved the idea of supporting rights of political prisoners and seeing that they were immediately released, because thought is not a crime. I did many letter writing campaigns for them, back when there weren't pc's and I was very enthused about their idea. I paid my dues, got many others to join, after PETA, it was probably the best "umbrella" group I knew of at the time. But then one day, I just noticed they never included Palestinian prisoners! I couldn't figure that one out. I asked the local branch organiser (a paid employee) why and he said he'd ask and find out. He never got an answer, he said, and I offered to do some research and find specific prisoners (that was the way they worked) and he said, "between you and me, I don't think Amnesty will promote it as they do for Asian or South American prisoners. Americans don't want to know…"
That's when i started to just stop giving so much time to groups that had "too many" interests and needed to get loads of members so that they could pay their staff!
Now, all the people I work with are volunteers. Every single one of them. I find they are more dedicated and yes… creative!
we need to note that there is only one enlightenment at a given point of time. From this, one concludes that there exist or shld exist only one world governance.
i am restricting my talk to just two levels: on interpersonal and international level. A governance regulates or prescribes or shld prescribe how we behave on interpersonal and int'l relationships.
alas, the governance on int'l is much worse than on interpersonal level. The world governance had not changed an iota since egyptian ascendancy. On international level, gangs rule; gangs that behave just like any biker or mafia gang.
so, how are we going to eduacte people if we leave just this one fact out. And not to mention various cults!
in our endeavor to elucidate the situation we must point this fact out.
so, i conclude that if we have [potentially] only one enlightenment, we shld have only oen org or movement.
or even better, one political party. tnx bozhidar balkas vancouver, b.c.
@bozh – @Mary Rizzo –
Amnesty has a branch in Israel, they deal mostly with the prostituting ring that goes on here. With out a doubt you have a problem, with an org that's in a country that doesn't acknowledge almost 50% of the population, but on the other hand- they are big. a big center that should be (and eventually will be) swayed left. I wish I could give an example of an education group that is universal and enlightening, but we're not there yet. But grassroots IS from the root up, and forgive my relentless optimism
I'm optimistic because I believe in the work ethic of human beings. My short experience in life (another root cause of said optimism) taught me that if you want to achieve something you have to make it happen- in other words- work. I see people working for it, thus it will happen.
I have to disagree on the idea of one political party, on the grounds that 2 are obviously not enough. I rather like that I have a choice and I think this diversity is important. What we lack, at this point is humanism as a point of departure. Human beings should be the be-all-end-all motivation of any societal action. A great example of a possible variety are Denise cuccinich and Ron Paul- one Rep, one Dem- both seem to think alike on the issue of war. You can't expect everyone to think like you, no matter how right you are- that's simply dictatorship. Whether there should be a governing body or not, that's a different question.
@Neri Bar-On1 –
Actually, human rights are quite simple- they’ve been enumerated by the UN. Sadly they haven’t been enforced, but they are very simple. I hope you’re aware that your government violates all 30 of these rights, everyday. And not just in the case of Palestinians. You personally have the right to sue your government for about 4-6 violations, in a court of international law.
The Zionists had every right to come to Palestine (article 13), it’s the rest of what they did they had no right to do.
Now we could argue whether rights exist or not till the sun goes down, but I doubt you would want the alternative. I heard it the first time you snickered at international law, but I believe strongly, that we should work to enforce it. If we don’t we are left with aforementioned alternative. Jungle law hasn’t gotten us very far, has it?
We are NOT a collective- we are very much an apartheid state (thanks to Israeli rule), where one is above the other. Palestinians don’t have “territorial problems”, they have “human rights problems”. Israel is an oppressor – oppressors have duties. When said oppressor fulfills it’s duties, we can start talking of sharing of the burden.
On a different point, I’ve also seen that you copy paste the majority of the stuff that you write here. Why not try to have an actual conversation. I find that it helps me learn new things, even if I basically say the same things over and over again- saying them differently every time, puts them in a new prism and broadens my view.
@Tali -
Tali, you are just so sweet, and your youthful optimism is not in any way tampering with your reasoning capabilities!
I wouldn't want a world organisation. Like one of my friends said, I hardly agree with myself sometimes, how could I feel that a particular diversified group could represent me.
I had seen a very cute video on an anarchist site recently. It was a "lesson" on how to categorise people. It was really funny because he did these fake edits where you could see his beard grow and he would be illustrating the 6 billionth category and so on…
But this is not to say that people can not and should not coalise! I do it all the time. I simply believe that we should stick firm to the principles and not alter them to suit some other criteria, which often is economic.
@Tali –
Hey Tali,
I just want to tell you that Mary is right, it's really refreshing to read you! I'll think of what you're saying – "I find that it helps me learn new things, even if I basically say the same things over and over again- saying them differently every time, puts them in a new prism and broadens my view. " – I love that! I'll try to look at things like you do – because until now people like Neri (and worse) tend to exhaust me… I see them as hopeless cases – but maybe, who knows, one day, they'll see the light?
… I love your formulations, indeed you are very clear in saying things! Keep going! Go Tali, GO!! 
@Eva Ferrero –
I was really sorry to read about your ordeal (all of you-seriously, there's soon gonna be a MePeaceVictims.Ning group!), and I thought your point about abuse was dead on. I did some spying on MePeace, in the beginning of this extraordinarily long conversation (I ain't complaining, I think it's going rather well) and I'll be repeating something I said before, somewhere else- MePeace should be banned by Palestinians until all the hate speech is rooted out, that's simply not acceptable!
Eva my dear, we should definitely waste some time on a cup of coffee
Now I'm not going to blame the victim, but I have a tip from what I've learned; Don't go in when you're looking at a violent racist- it's asking for it. Just like you wouldn't go walking alone at night. Take care of yourself love
@Mary Rizzo –
I agree on major groups- we can't all completely agree and we should definitely stick to our principles (someone's got to do it). though I still think we can use them. There's also that "power in numbers" thing to consider. Bozh said that they had over 300 members, but only a few did the work. That's usually the case, but an org also has to be able to say "I have this and this many people officially on my side". Both Amnesty and PETA did something very smart- you want to be a member, you have to pay. I think money is another commitment we make- it does make the world go round and all that.
I'd love to see that video- how about a link?
Since some of my text was not published because of editing and banning statements from Marry.
I have no problem to post it twice, and when I do that it do appear here too (magic isn't it). so callin it "Neri's posts here are cut and paste spamming. " is vicious smear typical to you Mary. anything I post in the thread of this discussion in mepeace is post here before I post it there, but it appear here after I post it there …
unlike you and Tali I take seriously what I write and my intentions, and while you smear others with titles
"lurker on MePeace" instead of admitting the people do find mepeace.org as valuable place for discussions.
if you read my post on Human duty you will find that it include Israelis and Palestinians and this is what we should expect from any one who respect others. this is not reconstruction Human rights, it is the missing element in Human rights that You and Mazin ignores.
Tali,
i did not vote to any Israeli election so I do not know why you claim that the government is my government. This is the Israeli government and I reject many of their action as you. we are both Israeli citizen.
I do agree with you, The Zionists had no right to come to Palestine (article 13), so the rest of what they did is outcome of that. I wonder is Mary think too as you do that Zionists had right to come to Palestine.
(did you know that in 1943 when Jews were 30% of the population and owned 6% of the land they payed 56% of the mandatory taxas ?) it is all here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1000.html
I post this and other of my post in mepeace.org too. it is done because Marry do not post all what I write and she edit it too so it is a "safe" practice. this is part of my attempt to have actual conversation.
Mary,
It is interesting to see that the majority of people discuss here are not http://palestinethinktank.com/ … they are Jews from you to Tali and Eva. some of this Jews are living on what used to be Arab property in Jerusalem and in Omer.
and you call this Palestinian think tank
If you wish to see what Palestinians think here is latest Palestinian pools done by Palestinian university:
Most Palestinians want unity government, poll finds
27 May 2009 17:54:55 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Mohammed Assadi
RAMALLAH, West Bank, May 27 (Reuters) – Most Palestinians support efforts to forge a unity government as the way to heal an internal rift that has hurt the chances of achieving a peace deal with Israel, an opinion poll published on Wednesday showed.
A survey by Birzeit University, based near the West Bank city of Ramallah, found 58 percent of Palestinians thought a joint coalition of the Western-backed Fatah movement and Hamas Islamists could best resolve their crisis.
Egyptian-sponsored talks between the factions, whose rift broke into open conflict in 2007 when Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip, were scheduled to resume in July after months of unsuccessful sessions, the latest of which was held on May 18.
A unity government could help overcome the crippling effect of a Western economic boycott of Hamas for its refusal to recognise Israel. The West backs Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas who supports dialogue with the Jewish state.
The poll, for which 6,398 people were questioned in early April, gave a breakdown of opinion for those in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and those living in Gaza — unusual in polls of Palestinians.
It showed that contrary to past polls, more than 37 percent of Palestinians in Hamas-ruled Gaza would vote for Abbas's Fatah movement if a new parliamentary election were held, and just 23 percent would choose Hamas.
The overall result in such an election would be 31 percent for Fatah and 17 percent for Hamas, the poll showed. Hamas won the last Palestinian parliamentary election held in 2006.
Other poll figures predicted Abbas could defeat Hamas Islamist leader Ismail Haniyeh in a presidential election scheduled to be held next year. A separate survey conducted in March had given Hamas the electoral edge.
The survey also found two in three Palestinians living in Gaza, were optimistic about their future, despite an Israeli offensive in January that devastated parts of the territory.
About 1,400 Palestinians were killed and some 5,000 homes were destroyed in the 22 days of fighting Israel launched in response to rocket fire by Gaza militants at its cities. Fourteen Israelis also died in the conflict.
"Despite the tragic situation in Gaza, despite the last war, people look to the (Mediterranean) sea and they have hope. Without hope, it's difficult to carry on," researcher Ayman Abdulmajeed said of the poll.
Why should one have to explain a technical thing ten times to someone who apparently "lives" on internet?
Neri, this is the very last time I will tell you: if you have a comment with your ID Neri Bar-On, X email and X url, you have to keep it. Otherwise, the computer program files it in spam. That means, it gets posted when I get back in town or when I have time, sometimes missing a day or two. You continually change them. There is NO consistency and we have Bar-On Neri, Neri Bar-On1, now Neri Bar-On15, NB etc. The Urls change, the email (it's not even yours, take a look) so, it's easier for you to blame me for censoring you than to follow the instructions which have been now given to you 3 times publicly (this is the 4th actually) and twice in an email.
The rest of your comments are avoiding the discourse because you are the last person to know or care what Palestinians think. Besides, you take a poll from One Voice. We have an article about OV on this site, it's another Zionist cover operation. How original of you!
Anyway, I don't label people ethnically like you do. It's an ugly habit.
@Neri Bar-On 16 –
Neri,
May I suggest that you use a simple Word spell check before you post things on the net? And may I suggest that besides that you read your posts a second time – slowly – before you click on "submit comment"
Neri – this site is called Palestine Think Tank and NOT Palestinian Think Tank. Do you understand that there is a difference between "Palestine" and "Palestinian". Palestine is a region and a country, while Palestinian is a person or an adjective, a qualification. Anyone, even a Japanese or a Sudanese or South African can think about "Palestine", even though a Japanese is (generally) NOT a Palestinian – and so on? – Is that fine with you? In checking your texts before publishing them you would avoid such "misunderstandings" – and in general improve other peoples comfort in reading your texts. We all make mistakes, we all make typos, but on the long run it's really hard to read your postings – so many mistakes and typos could be avoided..
@Tali –
more on one party rule based on one and the only knowledge we have or wld universally agree on as valid.
elsewhere, on DV mostly, i have pointed out, that elected people to govern a country are in reality mere managers. In US, elected people manage the affairs of the entire empire but, of course, such management is in toto controled by amer plutos or perhaps btwn 0001 to 5% of US pop.
so, i shld have said that we need only one managing team at one time. However, US has a oneparty system. It is the best system ever invented for ruling over about 90+% of amers.
so, as tali points out, one party rule is indeed dictatorial.
if we adopt an enligtened constitution to guide us in interpersonal and international levels, that too might be considered a dictatorship ; especially by people who are genetically or otherwise inclined to be fascist; i.e., believes in inequality an dthe right of a fascist rule.
i hope that this clarifiication wld help in understanding what our goals shld be. Natch, i don't want utopia nor is it possibel to ?ever achieve. tnx bozhidar balkas vancouver
Neri: a bit of terminology -
lurker = one who reads a site but does not interact. The reasons for non-interaction are not evident, obviously. Apparently, MePeace has a mainly lurker population, since of the 2000 pass members, only about 15 participate regularly. Your stats state that in a month there are about 700 unique visits. (what we get in a few hours here, and obviously for a site that is not a ning, meaning, it doesn't stand or fall on participation, these numbers are highly relevant).
Palestinian land… not only Omer and East Jerusalem… Arabs lived in every part of Palestine. So, you have to admit that you too live on land that was taken from the Arabs, but you don't seem to recognise this.
Differently from Tali, I do not believe Zionists had a "right" to come to Palestine. Palestine, like all other countries in the region, was under mandate of European countries following the defeat of the Ottomans and this meant that it was on the road to its own autonomy and that it should never have been determined to be a Jewish State, which is what the Zionists wanted. If they would have come simply to live in Palestine with the Palestinians, and not in their place, we could think of them differently, but this was never their goal. In that way, they came either as colonial invaders or occupiers. They remained the same, and probably worse, in a sense, because they implement racist policies to maintain the Jewish State in Palestine. So no. I don't agree with her that they had any right to do it.
Eva is right about your misreading of Palestine, however, two of the editors are Palestinians. Haitham who is from Tulkarem and Gilad who is in exile until it returns to Palestinian rule. He recognises that Jews do not have a right to rule over it just because they "do". Most of the other contributors are also Palestinians, so what do you want, actually?
BTW, why not respond to the article, which is about MePeace and state what is incorrect about the article, with examples? Just your responses demonstrate that what I've said is true! You have fulfilled almost everything, and this is what is the most interesting aspect of all. Especially the claims that I censor you or edit you! Especially that people are banned from MePeace, but then they are "discussed" although they can't intervene. (not actually discussed, just dissed).
About your cut and paste, it's a fact. Someone told me that the posts here appear in 3 or 4 different threads on MePeace, he especially noted it because of the way you spell love (lave) and the order of presentation and total off topic-ness of it all. So, yes, you basically make a few posts, spam them around and then expect us to deal with them, when you don't deal with the actual content of the post that is presented… you call it a smear, but you don't rebut it at all except to insult (the international one, the use of the condemning "we" and many other things pointed out).
Neri, You wrote: "the question of right of return is complex".
In fact zionists (including zionists-in-disguise and zionists-by-nature) try to convince others that Palestine related issues are complicated. But each and every government in israel from 'left' to right has contributed to the complexity of the situation by expanding settlements, land confiscation, home demolition and so on and so forth. It's amazing to note that settlement growth rate increases right after each so called 'peace' talks.
You wrote: "I belive that after two state solution state we can work together to have confederation where we reduce the religious ethno-centric elements we have in our nations for the benefit of all citizens."
Neri, 'solutions' that do not mention the right of return, regardless of the form they take (1-state, 2-state, and even 57-state as recently proposed by israel's ally King Abdullah of Jordan) are no solutions at all and are doomed to fail.
You wrote: "Did you listende to Bassem Eid who live in refugee camp?"
I advised you to watch the show (and in fact in its entirety) but why did you handpick Bassem Eid whose viewpoint was strongly rejected by the audience. Why dont you even mention Ali Abunimah? Let me remind you that Palestinians chose Hamas and therefor resistance.
You wrote: "Can you see that the Palestinian violent resistance is a war call."
Neri, Can't you see that your presence on Palestinian land is a war call? But you dont care, because your army is equiped with F16s, Apache Helicopters, White Phosphorous bombs and cluster bombs among an endless list of American made weapons paid by American tax payers.
Are you suggesting that violent occupation be answered just by nonviolent demonstrations (through which recently Tristan Anderson and Bassem Abu Rahme were shot by israelis, the former now fighting with death and the latter laying in rest) and israel's beloved 'peace' talks which have been proven fruitless?
You wrote: "fighting from Gaza with 2.5Kg bombs against 1Ton is stupid strategy that hostage many palestinian civilians in war zone."
I wonder what would your advice be to my beloved prophet David when he was fighting Goliath? Would you call him stupid (God forbid)? I'm sure Bassem Eid would advise him to surrender.
You wrote: "I am not sure the Lebanese experience" the 33-day war "as a victory".
I advise you to follow the news concerning the soon to come Lebanese 2009 parliamentary elections. I also advise you to focus on the election results in the southern cities of Lebanon. After all, those who suffered most in the course of the July 2006 war were residents of southern Lebanese cities.
Resistance is the path many Lebanese have chosen. It proved to be effective when in May 2000 they managed to kick the israelis out of Lebanon.
You wrote: "their victory is count of dead innocent Arabs by the Jews."
The huge number of "dead innocent Arabs" is not a victory in itself but the fact that they didn't surrender and bow to their ruthless brutal enemy despite this huge loss of life IS a victory and their resistance will bring about more victories (in sha Allah).
You wrote: "the honor of Palestinian home Key is seem to be more important then children life."
Are you suggesting that to survive under every circumstances (including homelessness and daily humiliatin among others) should be the goal of Palestinian children? Is this the bright future you are drawing for them?
Resistance is zionists' nightmare.
Goliath will be defeated soon (in sha Allah).
My words have been misconstrued, so here’s a clear up: Zionists/Jews/Hebrews/Whatever had a right to go anywhere (via freedom of movement, not religious ideological crap), but a rational person would expect them to blend into their environment, not kill it off. If I go to another country, I learn the local language, I get a job and get on with my neighbors, not execute their kids. The right I’m referring to is a human right (although it didn’t officially exist before December 1948) not a nationalistic one. History shows quite clearly the need to uphold human rights, as somehow we humans tend to disrespect life.
@bozh –
“i have pointed out, that elected people to govern a country are in reality mere managers. ”
Agreed
“so, i shld have said that we need only one managing team at one time. However, US has a oneparty system. It is the best system ever invented for ruling over about 90+% of amers.”
Sorry, it’s probably my fault- I’m having difficulty understanding you, can you try and rephrase?
“if we adopt an enligtened constitution to guide us in interpersonal and international levels, that too might be considered a dictatorship ; especially by people who are genetically or otherwise inclined to be fascist; i.e., believes in inequality an dthe right of a fascist rule.
i hope that this clarifiication wld help in understanding what our goals shld be. Natch, i don't want utopia nor is it possibel to ?ever achieve. tnx bozhidar balkas vancouver ”
I don’t agree that people are genetically inclined to fascism. In fact, saying so puts forth a dangerous theory, in my opinion.
I wouldn’t want a ruling body either, but say the UN representatives were voted for by the people of each country- that could lead to much more beneficial results. I don’t believe in governing bodies, but I do believe in organizing councils, from the people, in order to get things (constructive things- not destructive things) done.
I’d go for utopia- aim high, right?
@Neri Bar-On 15 –
“the missing element in Human rights”
what’s this mysterious missing element?
“i did not vote to any Israeli election so I do not know why you claim that the government is my government. This is the Israeli government and I reject many of their action as you. we are both Israeli citizen.”
Some things you say are redundant- yes, we are both Israeli citizens.
As for not voting- that’s nothing to be proud of. Again, you are the silence that permits. There are at least 3 viable parties you can vote for- all three are and have been in parliament for many years and need as many voices as they can get- that’s something you can do once in 2-3 years, to help further Palestinian liberation.
“I do agree with you, The Zionists had no right to come to Palestine (article 13), so the rest of what they did is outcome of that. I wonder is Mary think too as you do that Zionists had right to come to Palestine.”
Do you know what Article 13 is Neri?
What the Zionists did was not an outcome of them coming to Palestine, what they did was an outcome of an inability to accept the “other”- in other words racism.
“(did you know that in 1943 when Jews were 30% of the population and owned 6% of the land they payed 56% of the mandatory taxas ?) it is all here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1000.html”
What is that relevant to?
“I post this and other of my post in mepeace.org too. it is done because Marry do not post all what I write and she edit it too so it is a "safe" practice. this is part of my attempt to have actual conversation.”
Frankly, I don’t care about your beef with Mary, it’s just not what I’m here for. What I meant was that it’s rather suspicious that you post there, then here as though what I, or others say doesn’t deserve thought and an original answer. It’s very anti social of you, and I think mainly, it offends. I also think you have failed to answer Mary’s post, seeing as you are a moderator of MePeace, I’d think you’d want to defend it. Although, I must tell you, it takes about 2 minutes to see what Mary’s saying. The majority of the people are racists and aren’t very shy about it. Whatever you think you’re achieving- you’re not.
I’d also like to add about the things you say to Mary:
“ It is interesting to see that the majority of people discuss here are not http://palestinethinktank.com/ … they are Jews from you to Tali and Eva. some of this Jews are living on what used to be Arab property in Jerusalem and in Omer.”
Where do you live? A house in the sky? Are you not on Palestinian land?
I think I mentioned I’m an Atheist, I’d like to think my identity is respected. I also consider myself Palestinian, since I was born here and this is Palestine (no matter what some crazy Zionists want to call it), but I don’t want to confuse you any further. I’d also like to think that you could go beyond these identities, because these comments don’t make you look too good.
“If you wish to see what Palestinians think here is latest Palestinian pools done by Palestinian university:..”
Again- relevance? Also, I find that in order to know what Palestinians think, it's simplest to just ask them.
@Tali – Hi Tali (and Neri)!
"Also, I find that in order to know what Palestinians think, it's simplest to just ask them. "
Oh dear!! How right you are!! – Neri studies polls instead of speaking directly with Palestinians.
You know what? Mazin Qumsieh invited him publicly to come to his house and see the situation in Bethlehem/Beit Sahour by himself. But Neri didn't answer so far – I think he's (like most Israelis) simply scared to go there.
Mazin wrote an open invitation to Israeli mepeace members to come and meet him but only two of us replied and came. Neri – I go to Ramallah, Hebron, Abu Dis, Bethlehem – wherever I can go with public Palestinian busses and see! – I'm still alive
… Yifat went there and immediately volunteered to give art-classes in Aida Refugee Camp. She, too, is still alive… Eitan Bronstein (whom you say you know) is there every week – all still living and in good health!!
So why don't YOU go and speak to Palestinians directly instead of quoting ridiculous polls?
@Tali -
it does seem that it wld have been better had i said that people who MAY [and not are] be inclined to be fascist and who MAY or may not reject an enlightened constitution; thinking of it as dictatorial.
at one point of time there weren't any people with fascist ideas; however, at some point in time; probably 10 to20 K urs, a few individuals began to impose deviant [such as subjugation] thoughts on own people. So, we may have fascists with us for a long time.
to me, there exist [potentially] only two structures of society: fascist and socialist. An 'ideal' socialist structure wld be classless or classes wld be much blurred.
in a fascist societal structure like in US, 0001% of the pop owns 98% of USA. It is an extreme classful and thus iniquitous society.
an 'ideal' [this means nothing ever is perfect] constitution wld include at least these basic rights and stated tersely and explicitly: thou shall have equal healthcare, free higher education, vote to go or not go to war, one tier jurisprudence, right to be informed, etc.
tnx
@bozh –
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we basically agree on the issues.
Equality, classlessness, human rights, peace, education (a good one) and open information to all?
@Eva Ferrero –
Maybe they'll choke me to death by over feeding me organic zucchinis and goat cheese, every time I come around
@Tali Yes! That's indeed the greatest danger we face…
… Hope that one day we'll meet!! Mary could give you my mail, if you want…
@Eva Ferrero – I was gonna suggest that, but I'm so shy…lol
Dear friends
In my first comment on this marvellous post by Mary I wrote:
"another proPalestinian website has been censored by Google:
http://liverpoolfriendsofpalestine.co.uk
Google no longer indexes this website (but Yahoo still does) and that means the webpages belonging to this domain are excluded from google search results."
I wanted to inform you that the restriction is still in effect. The question is WHY this restriction has been put in effect and by WHOSE request.
In a similar move, Google stopped indexing Norman Finkelstein's official website (though the restriction has been removed after many of his readers became aware of it):
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com
Read the story here:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/04/why-cant-you-find-normanfinkelsteincom-on-google.html
Norman Finkelstein and Philip Weiss met with Hamas officials:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2009/06/our-meeting-with-hamas.html
How dare they try to legitimize these terrorists!
@Ali – You know what, Ali? Google tries it and most of the time gets away with it. They have done it with the only truly complete site on Iraq and the middle East, Uruknet. We wrote some posts about it, have sent letters in, all to no avail. One of the problems is also a group of people who are internet terrorists and use a DOS abuse. They have some program going where they get a site so "hit" that it gives a Denial of service, because it can't handle the traffic. Uruk found out about this as well, and there are even Zionist sites with instructions on "how to do it". They believe the only way forward is for sites to close down or be unaccessible. This is how afraid they are!
@Ali –
I've just found out today that many pro-Palestinians have had their accounts closed by Facebook, with no explanation.
I have found this entire conversation fascinating. It's June now, and looks like it's alive in some form even today. I must say how much I have enjoyed the initial piece by Mary that instigated the entire conversation, the ensuring discussion, the input, especially by Eva, Tali, Bozh, and particularly Ban Sidhe (Who are you!? Your words are like a salve – they flow so beautifully! You have a gentleness and sense that makes everything else pale by comparison) and even Neri (albeit, I cannot see why you don't answer the questions posed directly about financing and this Spiral-whatever-it-is thing…However, Neri, if you don't answer, that's your choice. But note that it doesn't help your situation to ignore those questions.)
I feel very educated by this dialogue. I appreciate the forum.
This also makes me feel that solutions are very hard to come by.
Oh, I also must address the comment by Sharon, and the frustration that prayer was employed instead of action. I think it's beautiful that the prayer existed in the first place. Not every church even notices others in pain. Perhaps this empathy drawn about can work to create action. I think one must not fault this act and one must not think it must only be action of other means to bring about change. Change begins in our hearts and minds, before it reaches our hands.