Cherif Ismail interviews Mary Rizzo
By Mary Rizzo • Aug 24th, 2008 at 21:07 • Category: Internet and Communication, Interviews, Israel, Newswire, Opinions and Letters, Palestine, Religion, Resistance, ZionismThis interview was originally published in Arabic on EuropaArab and Maktoob
Cherif: First, I would like to welcome you and it gives me great pleasure to do this interview with you in which you are introduced to the Arab audience for the first time.
Mary: Thanks Cherif. I am honoured that you’ve given me such an opportunity.
Cherif: Since you are Italian, how far is your interest with the Palestinian case – isn’t that a little bit strange?
Mary: I am Italian, yes, but I was born in the USA, maybe that makes it a bit stranger to be so dedicated to the Palestinian cause, since it gets such awful press there, or at least did when I lived there! At any rate, anyone and everyone in the world, even in Israel, only has to start to learn a little bit about history and inform themselves, and all the heavy indoctrination they may have had will start to crumble away, if they are not busy defending some beliefs they cling to for comfort or out of habit. Now that there is information that is practically free and available to almost everyone, I believe more people will turn their attention to the Palestinian and other liberation struggles, and that is why the Israeli and Zionist campaigners are really putting in great efforts to control the floodgates.
Cherif: We, all the Arabs, have read lots of English and French blogs about the Arab-Israeli case which shows the Israeli injustice against the Palestinians, are these blogs considered as a realistic expression of the real feelings of the European peoples or are these blogs just a sympathy?
Mary: That is a very good question, and I hope my answer won’t sound evasive! There are a lot of ways to present the Palestinian-Israeli case, and I think that the solidarity movements run the gamut from those who endorse a generic peace to those who support all forms of resistance, even those ones that might be labeled as radical. All of them “want” to see something good happen, this “peace” we all yearn for, but some of them probably do not have sources that are interested or willing to seriously question why there is such a level of violence, and depend on stereotypical responses to this question.
Another scenario is if someone sees so many atrocities, rights violations and out and out lies, when looking for material to publish, the editor (and I fall into this myself much more often than I like, generally for restrictions I share with many others, on how much time a person can dedicate in this “unpaid journalism work”) might feel there is a saturation in a journalistic sense. It is not out of disinterest, but it simply becomes very difficult to depict the depth and breadth of what is really going on. In this case, we thank heaven that there are others to fill in the blanks, to report what we didn’t report that day. So, in that case, I can only say, the more the better, and every blog or site that dedicates space and energy to achieving justice for Palestinian people is an ally, worthy of my respect and I believe is doing good in the world, spreading justice.
The motivations for running these blogs and sites vary, I suppose, but if the intention is to be a witness, to say, “I care”, then it is not wasted time, and it is doing its part in helping get the information out. I don’t believe anyone, given the emotional costs, (it is not a fashionable cause, and there are a lot of pitfalls, considering the terror many have with the absolutely real danger of being smeared and perhaps paying for this somehow) it leads me to believe that the sincere sites and blogs and activists (and the fake solidarity sites are another category) don’t do it out of an empty pity, but out of true compassion and yearning for justice and, basically, out of love for the steadfastness of the Palestinian people, which can’t but inspire someone on many levels.
Regarding the feelings of the European public, this is again, a very complicated matter. I believe they truly do see the atrocities and do not like them, but they aren’t allowed to really talk about the root causes, about what it might mean to stop Israel. On a human level, they are interested, but the mainstream media is not allowing them to really articulate this feeling and turn it into a mass political movement where they actually ask their lawmakers to do something. It is an apathy out of being ignorant of the situation, and obviously, Israel has been successful in promoting European guilt for the atrocities against the Jews, so Europeans maybe even think that Jews deserve a break, or worse, they erroneously believe that Palestinians came in to occupy Jewish land and Jews are the ones seeking justice there. If the hearts of Europeans were able to be free, they would embrace the Palestinian cause. Europe is fundamentally humanist and seeks rule of law.
Cherif: I read lots of articles in your blog written in English, which one of them impressed you more?
Mary: It is hard for me to list all the papers and articles I love! In the support of the Palestinian cause there are so many extraordinarily talented voices, and we are really lucky that this is true. I really admire the writings of Khalid Amayreh, Iqbal Tamimi, Reham Alhelsi, Nadia Hasan, Adel Samara, Omar Barghouti, Adib Kawar, Kawther Salam, Gilad Atzmon, Haitham Sabbah, Ramzy Baroud, Rania Masri, but also poets like Nahida Izzat, Annie Annab and Remi Kanazi, but then again, if I made a list, it would be as long as a mile, since I’ve been blogging on a daily basis for about 4 years now. Every time I read an article by Razan al Ghazzawi, no matter what she’s writing about, I am flabbergasted at the raw talent, and to think, I am only scratching the surface by listing off the top of my head some writing I love. I really can’t get enough of good writing, and I get carried away by the beauty of the more lyrical pieces that describe the history and people of Palestine, and then again, I love scathing criticism, deconstruction of Hasbara, a few cutting edge journalists and commentators. The site that Gilad, Haitham and I founded, www.palestinethinktank.com features a good deal of original writing by the writers I mentioned above. Some of our own work is there, but we also look for the “special” pieces that are different, so it would be hard to pick a paper or two, I’ll have to limit myself as it is and it’s giving me a stomach ache!
There is however a series of articles that are especially meaningful to me, the reports I wrote on the Bruxelles Tribunal on Israeli War Crimes in the so-called Second Lebanon War. It focused on many of the witnesses and experts called to testify.
Cherif: As being a Jew, describe the unjust assault you experienced? Was it by fanatic Zionists or by normal citizens?
Mary: To be honest, I don’t really identify myself as a Jew, since I don’t practice the religion, am from a multifaith family where perhaps Christian Liberation Theology was more influential and I since I don’t believe Jewishness is an ethnic group, the label doesn’t fit me. But generally, if someone is interested in knowing background, that might give them a slice of it, but it’s not the whole picture. And assault is also too big of a word for the stuff I would really call harassment and attempts to smear me and defame me, sometimes with incredibly complex campaigns, just to complicate my life, not really cause any true harm. Anyone who spends efforts to support the Palestinian cause has a big or little story of “victimhood”! Most of it, naturally, comes from Zionists who work in very orchestrated ways to close blogs, to jump into smear campaigns, including, surprisingly enough, some who call themselves “Anti-Zionist Jews”. They might do the world a favour by at least inventing more realistic lies to rid the field of those who they disagree with, instead of repeating the old lies that have been debunked. We are all in the discourse, whether they like it or not. But I would say that the bigger part of the negative interaction is from a category I call the Jewish Gatekeeper. They can be religious, secular, anything you like, but the point is, they want to control the dialogue and keep it out of territory that makes them look a little less kind and humanitarian and humanistic than they would like to. They really would like it best if you simply keep quiet, and if they can actually silence you, they are truly celebrating. Making a Westerner shut up is child’s play. Most really manage to let them have their way after they reach a saturation of the abusive behaviour.
The gatekeeper’s task is to admit there is something wrong, but they are really very busy denying what the causes are and justify at some level the military occupation of Palestine, or at the very least, some kind of Jewish right to Palestine. They have a lot of very stereotypical ideas of what some of the forces in play are, and use a lot of code words and work on “influencing the silent public” to believe you are either out of your mind, racist or dangerous. If you are not going by the pattern they want you to follow, and you won’t equate Jewish pain with Palestinian pain, then obviously they decide which kind of tool to use on you to get you out of the “peace” territory. They do not recognise a lot of things that are basic tenets of thought in the experience of the Palestinian people, such as Arab Unity, the meaning of democracy (either saying Palestine should be recognised only when it “learns what democracy is” or blaming the Palestinians for not being the European working class and voting in the Hamas instead). They don’t really get close to the social and ethical nature that many Palestinians see in Islam, even in Islamic parties, as if “Islam” was a codeword for “radical”, (while at the same time, a Jewish State seems like the most normal thing in the world). They don’t want to understand it, nine times out of ten, although, occasionally, there is going to be someone who is interested because he knows that the “only way out” is to understand the way the “other side” thinks, which in itself is a great improvement over the word “enemy”.
What matters is getting these people to start to question their narrative and to begin to learn the Palestinian narrative.
Cherif: Have you been before to Israel or to the Occupied Territories?
Mary: Unfortunately, never been to Palestine. And may I take this opportunity to simply state something about the names? I used to put “Israel” in inverted quotation marks. I wouldn’t go as far as “Zionist Entity”, but I just couldn’t handle the name, and I say this as one taught that Israel was the good side. But, Israel exists, and that is that. Yet, Israel claims it has a right to exist. As far as I see it, people have rights, individual and group rights, but a State? That seems to be something Israel invented in its Hasbara. It even sounds ridiculous. As far as Palestine, Palestine is a land, it is a geographical entity, one that has to be entire for many reasons. If Jews have any right to live there, in the land of Palestine, they have to love the land, share it and live together with the Palestinians, not in their place. Palestine isn’t going anywhere, and neither are the Palestinians.
Cherif: We, the Arabs, are not against the Jews and do not wish them to die. What we want is peace for Muslims and Jews on the land of Palestine – do you think this is Anti-Semitic?
Mary: How could that be Anti-Semitic!? It is an act of enormous magnanimity to propose living together in a State that was once yours, but now you would accept to be a minority, no matter how numerous. If only Jews in the land of Palestine and around the world would say the same thing, it could be possible to have real peace. This is why we have to keep reminding them that only by acting with respect and love of the land and people can some future happen. But I fear that the Jewish presence in Palestine is there to keep Western interests in a geographically strategic area, this means having control that would never slip and join in any kind of Arab nationalist movement. It doesn’t matter even if all the Jews around the world agreed, as long as there is not pressure upon those in power, it will never change, and there will either be a military occupation or means to keep a free Palestine that is the current Occupied Territories in a total state of impotency. This is why lots of fear instilling tactics are implemented, and why there is such bad reporting on purpose, to keep everyone totally confused so that they trust that the great leaders of the Western World know best.
The power works outside parameters of satisfying the desires of people it is supposed to serve. We are serving them, instead, and at least not in the near future, this isn’t changing. Although I know that currently the most “progressive” Israelis are now seeking the Palestinians who are advocating a division of the land. I don’t know how that is even possible any longer, but I won’t interfere with this issue, even though I see it as a way of “winning” without much sacrifice for the Israelis and enormous sacrifice for the Palestinians. I think two States is even acceptable as long as the Right of Return is respected. It is interesting in itself how the left and right have adopted a separation strategy and platform in a variable way over the course of the years. It is definitely an issue that stimulates much reflection.
Cherif: The Italian media always neglects the demands of the Palestinians, how are you going to tell the truth to the Italians under overwhelming mass media?
Mary: That is the problem of problems! Getting through the lies and obfuscation of the mass media, and Italy is under a condition of very biased coverage, even in the most progressive papers, which historically have been sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Part of it is that the papers are all related in some way or another to a major political party or economic group, and this means, they are careful not to offend the political and economic interests that control them, which are extremely conservative in this question. Italy is a small country, and these groups have a lot of power. All we can do is hope that in alternative media people are getting the information, and part of that is making it available in Italian. This is one of the reasons I founded www.tlaxcala.es with friends of mine. We translate articles to and from various languages, so that they can make the rounds as far as possible, escaping the linguistic block that keeps them at the border and doesn’t let them cross over. All we can do is hope that good people are able to wake up more and more, just like in other countries. Any other possibility of buying a major media outlet is excluded, so we have to make the best of what we have.
Cherif: One day, I had a blog in one of the French newspapers and it was cancelled because it showed the Israeli massacres in Palestine – didn’t you think the launch an Italian blog in one of the Italian newspapers or that’s not allowed?
Mary: It would be interesting to know who was behind canceling it. This is the way to understand if it was an orchestrated campaign from pro-Israel activists or from the paper itself because the advertisers were frightened. I don’t think that honest coverage in the major papers would be allowed here for the same reasons. There is a lot of pressure and it’s easier to buckle under, so they go the path of least resistance.
Cherif: Do you think that there will be a Palestinian State in the near future?
Mary: I really don’t know, and I don’t think so. There will be some change, because it seems that a lot of pawns are being shifted on the chessboard, but it depends on how clever the players are who will be able to keep the King from suffering a checkmate. I think the Palestinian people are intelligent enough politically to keep figures who damage them enormously such as Dahlan to the margins, but they don’t have enough freedom to act autonomously, and until they get some support from neighbouring States, I wonder how they will continue to resist. Again, I think that it must be stressed that Israel seeks normalisation, and without sacrificing anything for it, and this is where Palestinian supporters outside of the territory can help. They can demand certain conditions before normalisation with Israel. There are a lot of ways they can force Israel to adjust its policies, but who knows how much America would let them do it?
Cherif: The American Jewish Lobby controls the American presidential elections and we saw that Obama states that security of Israel comes first in his agenda, is there a strong Jewish lobby in Italy likewise?
Mary: There doesn’t need to be one. It is the fact that Italy is subalternate to the big powers, economically and politically, they don’t really do anything but continue in whatever the US policy in the Middle East is, with slight variations. Italy is a very important country strategically for its geographic position, and is missing an opportunity to contribute with a unified Mediterranean vision, but it insists on being the last planet in the American galaxy, rotating around the Sun of the White House. And it’s understandable, we don’t have energy resources, so we throw out the possibility of being a bridge for the reality of being the bottom rung on the ladder. We house a lot of US military bases here, which is incredible. I don’t think the US allows foreign military bases on their territory, but for Europe, it is just normal. So, as long as US policy remains the same, and it will until the Americans challenge their leaders to finally do what they think is best, achieving a lasting peace and justice and to get troops out of the Middle East, the situation will remain as it is and Italy will wag the tail. It is important for Americans (and I mean the power) to keep eyes focused away from any wrongdoing of its own, in all periods of its history, and this is why they are so hellbent on promoting the Israeli narrative of victimhood and the American narrative of upholders of freedom and democracy. But, they are narratives, the story as they tell it, reality is a different kettle of fish.
Cherif: Throughout your blog, what would you like to say to the Palestinian women?
Mary: That they have all my admiration and esteem and I hope that all the sacrifices they have made and are making will be rewarded. Some of the best, most dynamic and brilliant activists I know are Palestinian women, they are truly at the cutting edge in so many ways. They deserve to be leaders of their people.
Cherif: At the end, what would you like to say the Arab reader in general and the Palestinians in specific?
Mary: That their world is one that teach us Westerners a lot, and it is a shame we don’t know how to learn, myself included. The people of Arab countries have to keep trying and be patient with us. We don’t have a stoic vision. We call it Fatalism instead. Don’t give up on us yet. To Palestinians, the same message, to not give up on us, although we are really ineffective. We are hindered in the fact that your narrative, your history has been kept far away from us, so we aren’t aware of just how grave the existential danger you were living in is. But the tide is turning, and maybe we are starting to realise that unless you have justice, there is not going to be peace even in the West. To never lose hope in yourselves and to not lose hope in us. The end of the story isn’t written yet, much less is it carved in stone.
Mary Rizzo is an art restorer, translator and writer living in Italy. Editor and co-founder of Palestine Think Tank, co-founder of Tlaxcala translations collective. Her personal blog is Peacepalestine.
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Dear Mary,
long time no see. But this one is great.
One thing I wondered why you didn't take up the arrival of the boats.
As a commentator with Al Ahram put it asking the Arab nations
why they didn't have an idea like that. And it shows that a lot of
things are possible if only you give it a try.
Anyhow you did a very good job especially by pointing out that
the one-state-solution is the only realistic one.
My best wishes to you
Einar
Thanks Einar!
I wish I had more time to address all the issues on the table, including carefully following the boats to Gaza, but until a few days ago, I was doing the site alone, as the guys were away, and I too have been flooded with work. The workload doesn't seem to be slowing down, unfortunately!
It is great that so many creative people have good ideas of how to bring the attention of the world to this issue of the suffering of Gaza.
As to the one state thing… I used to campaign on it a lot. I have learned that it takes a lot of time away from the more urgent work, and anyway, it's generally a political issue, and that means we won't have a voice in it anyway. Once in a while I will go back there and reflect on it again, the days of focused activism have seemed to have come to an end too…. Too much horror has turned us back to facing the reality of Israeli violence.
I really do not understand how a person get to be a Jewish gatekeeper, Is it jus t a Jewish rule that some one it trained to be one?
Can we find many people who try to bridge the conflicting narratives of enemies and as they siting at the gate they can serve both sides to better manage themse lves to a better resolution. Are they a gatekeepers?
———————————————————–
The gatekeeper’s task is to admit there is something wrong, but they are really very busy denying what the causes are and justify at some level the military occ upation of Palestine, or at the very least, some kind of Jewish right to Palesti ne.
Neri, I hope you understand what gatekeeper refers to. The task is to say, "things are bad", but ithey will prevent anyone going into an analysis that actually starts to discuss it in depth or challenging even the dimension that the gatekeeper (whose task is to keep discourse within limited parameters) determines is correct (NOTICE: they always do this part in public, they are the guides, generally self-appointed and without any true consensus or requisites for holding that position). The limits of discourse are generally defined by the amount of denial that the gatekeeper is engaged in (because, naturally, they have to start from a point of something being wrong… they can't be the outspoken Zionists in this case).
It takes no training, other than personal determination to have some kind of social power in a social group and to set the parameters so that his own position will not be challenged, scrutinised and exposed for its contradictory nature.
Dear Mary,
the term gatekeeper that you use confuse me since there is no clear objective criteria just internal judgment.
If I look on two people who agree that the situation is bad, would I expect them to agree with the solution?
If we have Hamas supporter and Fatah supporter they both will agree that the occupation is bad (and many Israelis too) but they will disagree which is the right way to resist, the Hamas can ask for ethernal war with Israel till it will be destructed and the Fatah can think on stages or even accept the existance of Israel and 67 border solution.
So then I see two people agree that things are bad, but then disagree on the way to change reality who do we know if one of them a gatekeeper (and we all can be aware that reality is not a simple button controlled system, its a complex human system with culture and history moral etc.)
so far in your description you did not provide objective criteria to recognize a gatekeeper and it base on one's own belief that the other person is a gatekeeper.
for instance, a person can join a network and say: " I want peace and justice because it's the normal thing to desire." but then say that "justice" is based on a "eye to eye " moral and peace cannot be attained if this rule is not kept. is he a gatekeeper or a person with different understanding in modern moral?
Is there a test, a question that can revile that one's attitude is a gatekeeper?
First Mary – Should I say – "My skull-cap off for such a good interview.
Second Neri Bar-On – your example of comparing of Hamas with Fatah is as much illogic – as if I compare Zionist Jews with Orthodox Torah Jews. Hamas is a religious-based resistance group and believer in democratic rule of law. Fatah, on the other hand is a secular-minded resistance group, whose leaders have been found corrupt and USrael butt-lickers. Their leadership believe in dictatorship and would be more than satified even if they are awarded by a few hundred square miles of land to rule by Zionist-regime and protected by it.
Hamas has never threatened Jewish people in general. What they want, like the Orthodox Torah Jews – to live along with Jews, as they lived for the last 1300 years – within one state, Palestine – but under a secular constitution for the time-being. They also demand the return of over million Palestinian living outside their motherland – in refugee camps and foreign countries – most without citizenship of the countries they are forced to live in. Native Muslims and Christians, who were terrorized by Zionist thugs to flee from their homes – want to be compensated fairly.
While atheist Zionist Jews want to kill every Arab they can put their hands on – Orthodox Torah Jews pray for the dismantling of Zionist entity every day.
Dear Shaukat
I agree with you that religious attitude as Orthodox Torah Jews and Orthodox Muslim Arabs seek peace and justice as G-d's words. I was not taking about Fatah or Hamas, I was talking about different palestinians who support Fatah or Hamas. Hamas supporter and Fatah supporter are not Hamas or Fatah and I am sure that not all Fatah supporters are corrupt and USrael butt-lickers as not all Hamas supporters accept secular constitution for the time-being.
Do you think there are Fatah gatekeepers too?
as I asked Mary Is there a test, a question that can revile that one’s attitude is a gatekeeper?
Neri
I have followed your arguments many times on different debates, and on different websites.
You keep on diverting any debate from the most important focus point…OCCUPATION…you are still sqeezing Hamas and Fatah in every debate to distract attention away from the Zionist atrocities.
Hamas was born only in the eighties, and Fatah was born after long years and years of opression caused by the Zionist state. So please spare us this mumbo jumbo and the faked emotions and focus on one thing..the occupation.
I do not know how you have the nerve to discuss such issue, knowing the fact that that you came from South Africa to live in my HOME COUNTRY while I and few other millions whose families lived in Palestine for over 1400 years, are exiled all over the world. You walk freely in Jerusalem because you declared that you are practicing certain rituals which classifies you as a Jew and hence a member of the chosen by God, while Christian and Muslim citizens of Palestine were chased out of their home land, and the Palestinians who remained in Palestine can't visit each other without your permission…and most of the time they are not granted such privilage. So…pack your ideas and Back up.
Dear Iqbal,
Thank you for following up my argument.
1) I do no practice any Jewish ritual nor I see my self as a Jew
2) I born In Israe, both my parents came to Israel by a very young age so the people who broght me here are not with us any more. I do not understand why you say I came from south Africa.
3) Hamas and Fatah are very important entities in the conflict, and I do not think any of us need to avoid talking about and learning about them
4) my questions here is about gatekeeper, if you call my view "mumbo jumbo " it probably cannot work as example, can you provide example of gatekeeper with other ideological dispute?
5) I did not criticize any of this palestinians entities (as Shaukat did) and do not understand why you are attacking me about this, Do you think there is no dispute between Hamas and Fatah as Shaukat expressed?
The problem with GateKeeper concept is that if we follow Mary's description I am a gatekeeper for you and you are a Gatekeeper for me … if that so how can we work together to change this realty, Is the solution is only when we all see ourselves as Palestinians ? have no problem with that, but if this is the case I am not willing to be attack by other Palestinians due my grandfather actions.
are we seeking peace and justice? do all Palestinains agree what is Justice? as you "followed your arguments many times on different debates" you probaly met Wael,Hiba, Bassam Aramin and other who I usually have better communication then I have with you, so Is they doing anything wrong?
Neri
Lets please start one by one.
Can you tell us please about the origin of your family and on what bases if not just being Jewish they ended up in my country? and when has that happen?
Dear Iqbal,
Around 48 my grandmother refugee from Romania arrived after my grandfather was killed by the Nazis and she traveled in Russia,Iran,china during WW-II, my other grandfather from immigrated from Turkey in 49. My father and mother met about 18 years later thay have no other nationality Romania, nor Turkey will agree to accept them or me.
all the generation that brought me here is dead now. I live all my life here as a citizen of Israel and have no other nationality.
I am aware of the Palestinian condition and dedicate my energies to make change within Israel to accommodate new conditions to improve the Palestinian condition within Israel and in the Palestinian state to come.
As my question are about GateKeeper, Mary said about GateKeeper that his/her "personal determination to have some kind of social power in a social group and to set the parameters so that his own position will not be challenged, scrutinised and exposed for its contradictory nature."
I have no problem to challenge my position, will you agree that I'll challenge yours?
So you are originally from Romania, your roots are as shallow as 1948 in Palestine. You are living in my country, and I am now a refugee in exile even though my family roots in Palestine is way older than 1400 years.
And YOU are dedicated to improve the Palestinians coditions ( caused by your racist government) …how very nice and generous. Can you tell my what have you done up till now?
How many Palestinian you have managed to bring from Exile?
How many sick Palestinian you managed to help to access medical treatment?
How many homes you have built for Palestinians demolished by your aparthied state?
How many Palestinian have you compensated for turning their life's a living hell especially after building the wall, and uprooting the olive trees by the settlers who stole our lands?
Dear Mr Neri, remember one thing… you are living in my home, and I am not…it is not apropriate to tell us that you are offering the Palestinians help unless I am and 4 million other Palestinians are back home.
Dear Iqbal,
Please understand, your home was destroyed, I was never and will never live in your home.
It seem that you do not wish cooperate and just seek that the grand children of the 1948 Israelis will build your home and you are going to blame them for the Palestinian crisis.
I do think that Israel as a human entity needs to address the harm done to the Palestinian, I do see that this is not enough and the Palestinians need too to seek capacity to self manage and create their home as many palestinians do, when I bring them and show you that the young generations.
Mary said about GateKeepers: They can be religious, secular, anything you like, but the point is, they want to control the dialog and keep it out of territory that makes them look a little less kind and humanitarian and humanistic than they would like to. They really would like it best if you simply keep quiet, and if they can actually silence you, they are truly celebrating. Making a Westerner shut up is child’s play. Most really manage to let them have their way after they reach a saturation of the abusive behavior.
To understand the social dynamics that the two nations need to go you need to see me under my "wolf" clothing in my HUman flesh because unless you will recognize my humanity we are stuck in endless fight as you try to kill my wolf image you have in your mind.
The kind of aggression you impose on me here and other places is understood by me, I do not seek refuge from your words as I recognize the harm done to you and the Palestinian. But this aggression is one of the reasons we cannot get peace, this is a cal for "Justice" that ignores the complexity of the situation. by bring this aggression on me – you are acting as a Gatekeeper as Mary described, but I do not think you act from the motives she describe and hence I do not see you as a GateKeeper, and hope that Mary will provide some objective test to validate who is a Gatekeeper and who is not.
Neri Bar-On
‘Please understand, your home was destroyed’.
What a relief, nice of you to bring me back to reality.
‘It seems that you do not wish cooperate’
What do I have to cooperate with? Your state stripped us of everything, cooperation happens when the two sides have equal rights of access to power and decision making. Do you expect me as a humble person to make things easier for you and speak on behalf of millions of Palestinians destroyed totally and relief you’re aching conscious by telling you, on behalf of Palestinians we forgive you. You can stay in our country, we will just lick our wounds in the shade and give in since we can never turn the clock back, and there is no way the history will be changed? You are mistaken, the Palestinians fought and lost thousands of their dear ones defending their right, and you will never find any Palestinian unless he is a traitor who can shut up and agree with you.
‘I do think that Israel as a human entity….’
Woooooo hold it, Israel and human does not mix together, it is oil and water.I appreciate if you stop thinking…
‘I do see that the Palestinians need too to seek capacity to self manage and create their home as many Palestinians do, when I bring them and show you that the young generations’.
Now you are worries about Palestinians? How very nice. And you know better than them how to self manage to build their homes? I can’t see how that happened since there are denied access to enter their country. And please stop faking the reality, you kept telling us about young Palestinians you claimed they are on your side, and after many many debates you came up with three names. One of them I found to be a faked personality, I have tried to contact many times and the replies I got show how insignificant such person is that if such person exists. The second is someone was used by your group and taken advantage of his kind heart, after all that one of your group smeared the memory of his little girl who was killed by your own soldiers. The third personality I know nothing about him and still one person does not represent millions of Palestinians. WAKE UP, we are watching everything you knit to fake normalisation with Palestinians… do not even dream of it.
Neri: a gatekeeper is someone who attempts to CONTROL THE PARAMETERS OF A DISCUSSION. This implies that it is relevant to internet forums, to social networks, to any place where there is a structure that is on some level democratic, even if its form is pyramidal, where there might be a moderator or a board of directors that facilitate discussion. There are gatekeepers within many groups, perhaps within the Hamas we will find some, but it is not X group against Y group where the gatekeeping takes place, but it happens within a specific group independently. In a case, it happens in the me Peace forum, where "Iman" was banned by decision of the above-mentioned Hiba and by Eyal, for putting up pictures, and then YOU come post about who Iman is and you falsely state that she even used a last name she did not use, and you post material that was NOT posted on that board in order to create a virtual opponent that can be discussed in abstentia and preventively immunised should she appear in another moment. It happens when Eva is banned for having published her own thoughts ON ANOTHER FORUM! It happens when someone is treated as if they think things they don't think, but still, they are to be isolated and the OTHERS, innoculated so that they don't try to point out that stating that Justice is basically a war cry is absolutely unethical and it would never be tolerated by an Israeli, why should a Palestinian tolerate it, etc….
As you know, we live according to a "social contract" that has been defined from Illuminism onwards, where we attempt to build societies bases on "good" as well as on "true". (Socrates vs Aristotle was the first of this ongoing battle, but it continues as we speak). What we know from Rouseau, Kant and others, we need to have "consensus" in order to decide how to act ethically, the greatest good for the greatest number of people, etc, and as such, we have the opportunity to contribute as simple people to political and social discussions, using our ideas, theories, thoughts and experiences as part of "discourse". And this means, we have debates, discussions, we seek to write and publish papers that broaden the debate and help us to reach anaysis that are close to being "good" as well as "true". This means only one thing: DEBATE MUST BE FREE and that means as long as we respect guidelines of not libeling or making false accusations; we have to allow the issue to have wide parameters: the public is able to decide if they are off topic, but they don't NEED to be told if they are good or bad arguments, allowed or forbidden by those who jump to generalisations, who misquote and use other tricks in order to isolate one area of those who are debating. Gatekeeping is a very common practice in those who are unable to have coherent and inconsistent arguments, but rather will direct the attention at some aspect that is based on a "fear consensus" – such as fear of being isolated socially from the group for stepping outside the parameters.
I guess you still don't get it?
And… one comment. You do keep pointing out the same few names as if they are representative of all Palestinians. This is so weird! Iqbal, obviously is Palestinian, knows thousands of Palestinians, so listing three for her is just plain silly! As well, I've been involved in activism for so long that over the years, I have established good communication with hundreds of Palestinians and consider many my close friends and partners, so I believe that you trust the words of two or three people (and sometimes they themselves do not wish to enter into some debates….) and need YOURSELF to expand your horizons. You can start here, on the top of the page, every day are original articles by Palestinians. The rest of the site contains two thirds contributions by Palestinians and people of Arab origin residing in many countries. You can find a panorama of persons so you can begin to come into contact with the voices you claim we should be hearing.
Neri Bar-On – regarding your question: "Do you think there are Fatah gatekeepers too?"
YES – in the broad sense – there are – and they're self-interests, the US and Israel.
Dear Iqbal,
Thank you for you honesty
The way I understand your position is that you ask for equality between the Israelis and the Palestinian or you ask that the Palestinian request for getting their pre-1948 status and for the Israelis to accept it. You do not see me as a partner and you ask in the name of the Palestinian you know to accept all your demands. You also do not see any human features in Israel hence you do not see attacking Israelis as Human right issue as you see Israel existence and support as crime against humanity.
between all that you clinically address any idea of cooperation, this is one of the crime of the Zionists too (and I am not cynic) as so many palestinians are stuck in this bitter hate and rage towards Israelis, a position that indeed present Palestinian resistance but also indirectly work within the Israeli mind and weaken the political change that me and my Israeli friend try to make within Israel. You defeated the Israeli left, good for you! and now no one can stop the right-wing Israeli to make the conditions harder for the Palestinians.
This is different from my position who assume that the changes done by the Zionist are too deep where Israel has about 7 million Jews. I think we should think from a one future perspective and not try to set the wheel back so we need to set a new situation where we 1st enable to the Palestinian to get back on their feet destroy the wall and remove all road-blocks and any Israeli occupation measures. This is a stage in a long term process to normalize and stabilize the Palestinian condition till the stage that we will not have a need for borders and the privileges of Palestinians will be equated to the Israelis citizenship privileges (The privileges regarding having strong economy, security, good education etc.) .
I found many Palestinians who can see this change process can work and I do not care if you call them traitors as within your own words It is clear you do not see me partner in the future of the middle east and do not wish to cooperate with people who do not accept all you claims without doubt.
some facts,
1) Eva is the person who published the ill letter of another person and I was one of the 1st to demand to remove it. Eva is part of your family so please keep facts.
2) Please check this 700 Palestinians: (with video)
http://humanemergencemiddleeast.org/build-palestine-blog/2008/02/palestinian-nation-building-movement.html
3) and this Palestinians
http://humanemergencemiddleeast.org/build-palestine-blog/2007/05/palestinian-generation-y-can-define.html
4) or this 10 year old girl: Balkis Rifaie
http://humanemergencemiddleeast.org/build-palestine-blog/2008/02/10-year-old-palestinian-girl-thinks-big.html
Dear Iqbal, for the future of the Palestinian children – WAKE UP.
My questions here is about Gatekeeper concept of Mary, so I need to answer her comment.
Shaukat,
I think that for any human "ideology" we can find people who do not discuss to understand the situation rather they seek to "win" by points over the others who they see as enemy. I do not call them a Gatekeepers, I call them "locked within their Ideology".
When I talk to people I do not assume they are locked, I open my heart and bring in what I think so we all can learn something, If I am wrong I learn from people reaction, the ideas I bring I check and develop till my last breath.
Now the trivial question “Do you think there are Hamas gatekeepers too?”
Dear Iqbal,
Thank you for you honesty
The way I understand your position is that you ask for equality between the Israelis and the Palestinian or you ask that the Palestinian request for getting their pre-1948 status and for the Israelis to accept it. You do not see me as a partner and you ask in the name of the Palestinian you know to accept all your demands. You also do not see any human features in Israel hence you do not see attacking Israelis as Human right issue as you see Israel existence and support as crime against humanity.
between all that you clinically address any idea of cooperation, this is one of the crime of the Zionists too (and I am not cynic) as so many palestinians are stuck in this bitter hate and rage towards Israelis, a position that indeed present Palestinian resistance but also indirectly work within the Israeli mind and weaken the political change that me and my Israeli friend try to make within Israel. You defeated the Israeli left, good for you! and now no one can stop the right-wing Israeli to make the conditions harder for the Palestinians.
This is different from my position who assume that the changes done by the Zionist are too deep where Israel has about 7 million Jews. I think we should think from a one future perspective and not try to set the wheel back so we need to set a new situation where we 1st enable to the Palestinian to get back on their feet destroy the wall and remove all road-blocks and any Israeli occupation measures. This is a stage in a long term process to normalize and stabilize the Palestinian condition till the stage that we will not have a need for borders and the privileges of Palestinians will be equated to the Israelis citizenship privileges (The privileges regarding having strong economy, security, good education etc.) .
I found many Palestinians who can see this change process can work and I do not care if you call them traitors as within your own words It is clear you do not see me partner in the future of the middle east and do not wish to cooperate with people who do not accept all you claims without doubt.
Mary,
I appreciated your analysis on Italian politics (“Italy is subalternate to the big powers, economically and politically, they don’t really do anything but continue in whatever the US policy in the Middle East is”).
Too bad the majority if Italians don’t even notice it and still do not understand that the USA regards Italy as another conquered country (controlling it politically and militarily) just as Germany, Japan, etc. This would explain for example why, in spite of different right or left governments getting into power, Italy always bends to the wishes of the USA. I suppose it would be interesting to dig the secret agreements between the 2 countries at the end of WW2. But this is another issue.
Though, I still believe that another reason behind the media censorship (Italian and Western) on Palestinians sufferings and unconditional support for their torturers, lies in the fact that part of the flood of money “Israel” receives from the USA, goes into the pockets of various Thought Leaders & Politicians, Italy included.
I was really surprised and pleased to see the coverage of the Liberty and Free Gaza boats into Gaza, so well done and put on air by RAI on both Rai 3 and Rai News 24. The censors did not get it. Luckily good things sometime happen.
Hi Fiore! Rai News 24 is a true Oasis with Torrealta and Rannucci. They were the first to have exposed the White Phosphorus and many of the issues with Pain Ray and other torture instruments developed by the US and Israel. I am about to quake starting when my daughter gets back to school because I will have my daily share of anger while watching Rai 3 in the morning. I DETEST the pro-Israel bias of Corradino Minnea and even more, of that disgusting **** licker Iman Sabbah, who nods her head and says, Sì, Sì. One day, he was going on about how terrible Hezbollah was and Iman had the cheek to comment, "We Christians detest Hamas as well…" I was about to say, PROVE IT! because almost all of my Christian Palestinian friends have NOTHING against Hamas and believe Hezbollah is a regular militia that is part of the Lebanese people and defends them against Israel, therefore, far from being detested!
But, yes, Italy has a strange relationship with the world. Today was watching on Mixer the episode of the 2 journalists kidnapped in Beirut in 1980. It was not that bad, actually, to realise that the issue is very complicated and to mention the Moro agreement with the Palestnians, which in a way compensates for the total bending over backwards for Israel and the US that are the "official" politics. If this were a program by anyone else, who knows if they would have mentioned that detail that George Habash had NOTHING to do with it?
Who truly frightens me is Fiamma Nierenstein. Did you ever read my article which commented on her appearance on Santoro? let me try to find it quick, hang on… http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2005/02/left-and-palestine.html
But, in spite of all of the heavy bias, I believe that people TRULY would support the Palestinian just cause if only they were allowed to know about it!
next time I'll tell you about my daughter's textbook which just got me really angry!
http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com/2006/03/pro-israeli-bias-in-italy-is-not.html
You might like this one too, Fiore.
Nari Bar-On
How many questions you expect to respond to person who is "locked within" Zionist lies, hatred and myths – like you?
Since my reply did not meet your standard of "Self-hating, Israel-threatening Ediots (SHITE) – handed-over to you by Zionazi-state's HASBRA – my answer to your latest question about HAMAs is going to fall on a 3-ft thick Zionist wall too!
YES – HAMAS has its "gatekeepers" too – which is Islamic morality and human dignity – two things you Zionists are not familiar with.
Dear Shaukat
why do you read me as I am not locked within” Zionist lies, hatred and myths?
I am sure not full understanding of Islamic morality ( I am not Muslim) but I am sure we both wish a human dignity solution for this bloody conflict that will respect all.
we may differ in regard the Israeli state and what to do with the historic harm done to the palestinians but can you see that the future we want to create involve all of us? It involve change within Israel and within Palestine to recognize that we cannot solve the problem by force and we need to set the condition to enable Israeli self image changed and Palestinians self image change simultaneously.
I do not think you can find any expression of hate and if I did I would take it back as I see one tissue of humans in the middle east.
Neri Bar-On
The reason I said you're locked within "Zionist lies, hatred and myths" – because, instead of having a sensible dialogue regarding the root cause of Arab sufferings in the Middle East – which are the result of westerner Christians' finding some way to dump their unwanted Jewish communities out of the West. Don't forget, it were Christians and not Muslims, who expelled Jews from almost every European country – with England for 350 years. The western powers, due to their centuries-old hatred and fear of Muslims – found it convenient to dump Jews into Palestine – which made Zionist Jews' dream come true.
As for the solution to Palestinian tragedy – European Jew settlers will never find peace in the Middle East until they return the land they stole from native Palestinian Muslims and Christians. After that if the Jews like to live under Palestinian rule – as equal citizen of united Palestine – good for them – otherwise, they should return to their motherlands in the West.
Shaukat,
I understand what you say, and I do think I am willing to have a sensible dialog regarding the root cause of Arab sufferings in the Middle East. I'll be happy if you would like it too.
you say "Westerners dump their unwanted Jewish communities out of the West" into Palestine were "due to their centuries-old hatred and fear of Muslims".
So I think you claim the hate toward Muslims and toward Jews made Zionist succeed as it solve the west problem of the Jews as it was expressed by the 1933-1945 German regime.
I can understand that, but do not see that as a fact.
The dynamics of western impose on the Arab world starts in the end of the 18th century for different reasons but it come from European paternalism thinking the Arabs are backward and their resources can be exploited the economic reasons are much more stronger then the Hate for the Jews or to the Arabs. in some sense as the Zionist were not aware of the Palestinians (In many Zionist texts it say they thought there are few Arabs and empty land) and come for the opportunity to exployt the resorces of the land for creating Jewish homeland, the end of it is existence of Israel and disaster for the Arab people of Palestine.
Do you think we can resolve the issues without hate? can we accept the existence of each other for creating one healthy future for all of us and find ways to collaborate for the sake of the poor and weak in our society?
I am sure that getting this message from Israel can be interpreted as insult as I am living on Palestinian land and ask you cooperate with me as equal. I think we are both humans with wisdom and experience that can create new future by recognizing we are all part of one human tissue of Muslims, Cristian and Jews.
I think it is our dignity to make sure that our children will have better future and improved conditions I think that as a Human tissue whole we need to find ways to use the technology and wealth of the nations to structure a relationship that will enable true expression of Palestinians but also of Israelis as the human core we all share.
The end of it can be seen as one Palestinian state or one Middle-eastern state that has the GDP of Qatar and world network and influence as the jews and the spirit of the Palestinians.
this will not get in no time nor it can happened if we send the Jews back to the European and Arab countries they come from. at this point we can see that the Israelis will resist it, and as the Palestinian resistance kill Israelis the Israeli side kill much more Palestinians. We need to look for opportunities, cooperation and planning and not in the dreams that are too idealistic to come true.
Neri Bar-On
Stop throwing your Jewish crime guilt on western Christians. They hated the Jews for good reasons – as the German and Arabs are doing now.
Israel is was never meant to be a safe-home for Jews – because the Jews had lived within Muslim societies for over 1,300 years – while despised by the Christian world.
Every self-denial love to live in a false history and religious interpretations created to cover his evil agenda – and Zionist Jews, being atheist mostly, and racist in general – not only toward Muslims and Christians and even fellow Jews. Listen this truth about Zionist evilness from an Israeli daily – Ha'aretz and stop whining like a spoiled baby:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=376724
Shaykat,
I guess many people understand your comments as racist as it describe the Jews as something inherently wrong with them. As some who was grew up in Jewish culture I do not see the same as you do nor I have any guilt.
I think the Israel will be transform from its Jewish-democratic paradox describe in the article you brought and this is a sign of the flexibility of Israel and its Jewish population.
Do you want to talk, or do you prefer I'll talk to someone else, it seem you are very sensitive to my Jewish origin which like Mary Rizzo has small impact in my identity/
Nerikut – I have no objection to your living in self-denial. However, history is witess that it were Jewish communities who have been hated in the West – and stll are – for their various social and criminal activities.
On the other hand, Muslims have a long history of liberating the very scums, who poisoned the Prophet of Islam – TWICE.
You, like some fool is expecting Zionazi state to change its original agenda of a demographic Jewish colony without wipping-out the evil natural of Zionism from the fascist Jew settlers. It will never happen, because that would be the end of Zionist dream of escaping Western anti-Semitism. Same goes for your idiotic assertion of Israel being a democratic state. When Jews vote to 22 odd political parties instead of politicians – with most Natives denied the right to vote – what kind of stupid democracy are you talking about?
I give a damn, whether you take my truth as an intelligent person – or whine like a HASBRA creep. As for your Jewishness is concerned – too bad Jews are cursed both in Torah and the New Testament. So go and complain to Rev. Ted Pike – as Abe Foxman (ADL) did last year.
Dear Shaukat,
I probably cannot say anything that can prove you are wrong to think : "history is witess that it were Jewish communities who have been hated in the West – and stll are – for their various social and criminal activities."
as you think I am in denial you will not listen to my arguments and will try to enlighten me (if you wish to invest some time in Israeli).
if one day you'll see that we are all Humans in wolves clothing you may find that we can all cooperate to create a better society for all. as for now I hope all the best for you.
You can read here some of my thoughts about "Humans in Wolves clothing – how do you envision shared future which doesn't exclude anybody."
http://www.mepeace.org/forum/topic/show?id=661876%3ATopic%3A92375
Mary Rizzo,
i am from india..i would liek to more about palestine and their system,..i wish to send u a personal email to u.
i have my precious person over there. so i badly need to help that person ..badly i wanted to talk to you.
i am in to some social works also..so please try to trust my words and i hope u will give kind attention to me..
care
San