Iqbal Tamimi – Media manipulations: The child was called a murderer while the soldier was called a ‘boy’
By Iqbal Tamimi • Jul 16th, 2008 at 13:59 • Category: Analysis, Features, Israel, Newswire, Opinions and Letters, Palestine, Somoud: Arab Voices of Resistance, War, Zionism
One of today’s main articles on the Guardian reads ‘Israel exchanges Lebanese murderer for bodies of two captured soldiers’.
When anyone in the English reading world sees this title and what follows in the article, he or she would immediately think that one of the persons mentioned is a vicious murderer while the others are innocent persons. This is a good example of media manipulation and steering of the public views, aiming to charge the public to hate one side and to sympathize with the other.
The story is about the swap of the oldest Lebanese prisoner in Israel, Samir Kuntar, in return of the bodies of two Israeli soldiers who it had been reported from the first, had died inside the Lebanese territories while on a military mission.
If we are to assume that the original reports of the circumstances and place of their capture are accurate, what were the two soldiers doing on another sovereign country's land, and why did they sneak there? Of course describing them as soldiers, one would think they were working inside the borders of their own country when they died, defending their soil. Calling someone a soldier is something totally different of calling him a fighter or a criminal, or even a militant.
These double standards are all over the press each and every day. Such titles even strip the reader of his own point of view: he is told from the very beginning who he should think of as a killer and who should be remembered with dignity even before reading the article.
The newspapers are practicing guardianship over the readers, regardless of their ages or knowledge. The newspaper has made up its mind that Kuntar is a murderer, but two Israeli persons, fully armed inside the borders of another country are not, and that what we are supposed to believe.
The Israeli soldiers mentioned were trespassing on the same land that witnessed in the 80s the Sabra and Chatilla massacre by the same Israeli army among many other massacres and attacks done by ‘soldiers’. And it is the same country that the IDF commander has admitted firing more than a million cluster bombs within it. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html
The Guardian even mentioned the ages of the two dead Israeli soldiers to gain more feelings of sympathy for them, by getting the reader to come closer to their human side. ‘The soldiers Eldad Regev 27, and Ehud Goldwasser 32’, was the text that they had chosen.
Such method of writing is to drive the readers to sympathize with these particular individuals, yet, the writer never cared to touch the human side of Kuntar, who has spent 30 years in Israeli jails. As a matter of fact, he was imprisoned at the age of 16. Which means he was a child. He might have been driven by the same anger of any teenager who witnesses a group of people massacring his own, he was not as responsible as the adult Israeli soldiers who knew exactly what they were doing.
The Guardian then says, 'Israel was due last night to pardon the Lebanese prisoner, Samir Kuntar’…how very thoughtful of Israel. One would hear the word Pardon and think of goodness and forgiveness, such idea is far from true. Imprisoning a 16 year old for 30 years and going through years of negotiations should not be described with a word like ‘pardon’.
The Guardian never forgot to describe in detail what Kuntar might have done to deserve the prison sentence, but it did not mention any of the Israeli soldiers’ atrocities against the Lebanese and the Palestinians. Such method of writing is to charge the readers with hate against one side, while adding a peaceful innocent victim mask on the other.
Another interesting sprinkle of sympathy is inserted within the article mentioning that Shimon Peres, the Israeli president, who is supposed to sign the ‘pardon’, has said, "It's not a happy choice. On one hand; we have the most terrible murderer. On the other hand, we have our commitment to our ‘boys’ who were ‘sent’ to ‘fight for their country’."
So, Kuntar is a terrible murderer, but the Israeli soldiers are not. They were ‘boys’ even though they were on a military mission by the ages of 27 and 32. While Kuntar, who was 16 when he went for his own individual mission, was described as a ruthless murderer.
Peres says, ‘they were sent to fight for their country’. For God’s sake, don’t they feel ashamed even of mentioning that? The soldiers were sent to attack inside the borders of a sovereign country, and still they say they are sent to fight for their country. Fight who? The Israeli attack on Lebanon was witnessed by millions of people all over the world. It was an attack on families, children, women, and old people … all civilians. It seems that the Guardian reporters has lost touch with their human and professional side when they have forgotten to mention millions of cluster bombs used by Israeli soldiers aimed at the Lebanese children.
Of course the emphasis on the human side continues in the Guardian report, it says that Isaac Herzog, a cabinet minister, said, "Clearly we opted for a resolution that fulfils our prime rule since the creation of the state of Israel, and this is to bring our sons home, despite the toll." … So… the matter is ‘bringing sons home’ – how very touching. Of course nothing was mentioned about Kuntar in this tone, it seems he was a cabbage kid, no one is eager to bring him back home, and he is no son of anyone.
The article is an example of a biased portrait as usual; there are lots of words I would classify as sneaked in, deliberately to make of one side a villain and the other an angel or a victim. This is an example of how the press can steer people’s emotions.
People usually scan the titles of newspapers, not many read the rest of the article. And after a few headlines of this kind, you can’t help but to swallow a ready canned lie, and consider one side guilty and the other innocent. One wonders whether the ethics of journalism has disappeared, or just lost its way.
Iqbal Tamimi is a Palestinian journalist and poet from Hebron. She is the creator of a vibrant and important activists' network Palestinian Mothers, open to all who share the vision of peace and justice, men and women alike. She is working now in UK.
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Samir Kuntar has no human side. He is a demon.
Omri
the israelis have killed more lebanese and Palestinians , and sprayed Lebanon with cluster bombs that are still causing casulties and have caused many many Massacres from Deir yassin , to Qana 86 to qana massacre 2006 , to Beit lahia crimes in nov 2006 , the list is HUGE . But israel has strong powerful lobby everywhere in the world . a lobby that protects it in the Media and in the Decision making places .
After drowning Danny Haran in the sea in front of Einat (as Ahmed Al-Brass, Mhanna Salim Al-Muayed, and Abdel Majeed Asslan served as look outs and backup cover for Kuntar), Kuntar turned his attention towards the 4 year-old. He took his rifle and then swung it across the toddler's head, knocking her to the ground. Kuntar then dragged the toddler a couple of feet to the closest rock he could find and laid her head down on a rock, with the intention of crushing it with the butt of his rifle. Einat, instinctively covered her head with her arms, Kuntar struggled with the toddler until he finally managed to clear her arms out of the way. Once her arms were out of the way, Kuntar repeatedly beat her on the head with the butt of his rifle and stomping on her body, until blood rushed out of her ears and mouth. Then, to ensure she was dead, Kuntar continued beating her over the head until her skull was crushed and she was dead.[4]
I hope Israel gave him a nice injection of something carcinogenic (like benzene) before letting this monster go.
Dearest IQbal,
Thank you for your article and your work. Please rest assured that all of the media biased does Not go unnoticed. I read the NY Times and I see it daily. May God bless and keep you.
The Israeli soldiers who got killed, got killed committing crimes for their false state. They were brainwashed, just as all the young jewish people have been brainwashed for 100 years. Yes. We are all responsible for our actions, but the blame lies in those at the head of the Zionist movement throughout the world. Samir Kuntar is not a murderer. He was a child who witnessed untold atrocities committed against his people by those who are called Zionists, whom I believe have no religion or God. His actions were murderous, but he is not a murderer. It is easy to imagine how someone, anyone would be driven mad to see bulldozers coming in the dead of night to break down houses and cut down olive and fig trees. It is easy to imagine that one would want retribution when one sees insults done to ones mother or grandfather and one, a child, cannot do anything to help. May God Bless and forgive Samir Kuntar because I know that Jesus Christ loves him dearly. And may God forgive the Zionists throughout the world for their criminality against the Palestinian people and for their crimes throughout the world, for there are many as witnessed in Colombia and the U.S.
I believe all this article shows is that there is little if any humanity or compassion within the hearts of the enemies of Jews and that morality and truth mean nothing to them. Thanks for posting it.
Julianne Gustafson Lira,
How do you know that Jesus "Christ loves him dearly"!? Who are you at all?
Do you have any relationships with him? Have you lately spoken to him!? Shame on you and on your holy pagan god!
Incidentally, this muderer is not Arab but a Druze converted to Islam. So let us say that Allah, the true God, and not the magician jew christ, loves him.
GO TO HELL.
Omri, so humans are really demons in your eyes. Good to know you are a perfect media sponge! How do you view those who send bombs upon a refuge in Qana, with 27 women and children inside, (of course, blocking the roads out). Hey, that wasn't a 16 year old doing it, but the cream of the Israeli crop.
Avi, I am certain Israel has done nasty things to him, but they had to keep feeding the image of the horrible beast to use for the evenutal exchange and new round of propaganda. Hey, no one is suggesting that murder is good. But, if you believe in justice, let's hope you believe that those who incarcerate use humanity. I don't believe they do, the record of it is just the opposite, as another article here pointing to the many deaths in Israeli jails points out. Not only that, ask yourself why 190 prisoners came back from Israeli jails in coffins….
Superbad: the enemies of Jews… what a title! It is amazing how you think in a totally categorical way, as if the killing of one person is equivalent to the killing of all. And how would you put the genocide that Israel conducted in 2006 in Lebanon… did they destroy all of humanity? I would say they did if we put it at that level.
And… they never did a day in prison or sat for a second in a court of law. This is criminal.
The author missed the chance to give us more information about Samir. Like that he is aged about 46, he received his Bachelor degree at the Israeli Open University and that he is a brave freedom figther with love for his country. And that he is very glad to be released, so he can join Hezbollah. I am sure this will raise more symphathy for the poor guy who spend 30 years in jail. Sure, killing a child the way described above by Avi is not nice, but Israelis killed also Lebanese people so whats the big deal?
I believe this trickery is constantly going on around the world, which is why I read most news on line and through extremely reliable resources. Propaganda has many faces!! All of them ugly!! No one is more guilty of bad faith than the Corporate Media Monsters of the world. The public would be wise to turn off their TV and search the net for truth. Thanks for the truth my friend Iqbal.
Julianne Gustafson Lira and Mary Rizzo , see your hero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6NyrexKlk
Mary Rizzo, you're lying when you say that "190 prisoners came back from Israeli jails in coffins". You are just a liar. They are Hizbullah terrorists killed in attacked initiated by Hizbullah. And did you see the photo of the murderer. He doesn't look as one who has suffered from maltreatment or malnutrition, and he has gain a BA degree from an Israeli university while in jail.
Eyes Wide Open,
You did not visit this web site by accident, and you know very well what is the content of this web site(you know lies and fabrications). So having visited this web site is not what caused your eyes to be wide open.
It is people like you who spread lies and fabrications and not the major media outlets. It is you who has a web site where you spread your propaganda. You ate not a naive surfer! And you should have told us what you think about this murderer.
I think there are two stories here:
One story concerns Kuntar and is he/was he a murderer, and to what extent is a 16 year-old responsible for his actions, and does anything about what he had witnessed in a brutal war explain or to any extent excuse his own actions, what should Israel have done with him, etc etc etc.
The other story is about how the Western media reports Israeli/Palestinian news and I think that is what Iqbal is writing about here. Even in the context of war, what Kuntar did was pretty bad, so I think it is inevitable that even in a non-war situation, whoever he was, in whatever part of the world he was, that story was going to come out when he was released. But to omit what I agree is a crucial piece of information, that he was 16 (maybe going on 17, it's not entirely clear to me) at the time, does mean that the reporting is biased.
On the other hand there may be a third story, and that is how much attention is given to reporting that the Israeli's bodies were mutilated?
Bottom line is, Iqbal is right, we do need objective reporting.
Didcot Man, you understand the situation completely. This is indeed the point and this is what Iqbal has written about.
Avi, you see the rule "No Zionist Propaganda". I violated the rule here by allowing your posting, so that we can hear "the other side" that we also consider propaganda, just as you consider the side which analyses the same issues from a different perspective propaganda.
This does not mean we are liars. Next time you call the site lies and fabrication, I will exercise my right to delete all your insinuations. Because you have no more rights here than anyone else, but you may actually have less if you abuse the other rule of treating others with respect. Calling me a liar is not respect. You have one final chance.
DidcotMan on July 17th, 2008 at 11:02:
On the other hand there may be a third story, and that is how much attention is given to reporting that the Israeli’s bodies were mutilated?
Where do you get your information from about this?
I have watched hours of TV and read nearly everything about this 'swap' and no one has mentioned the mutilation of the israeli bodies.
Further, the only reason that 'they' would not publicize this, is in respect for the sensibilities of the families.
It is such an obvious propaganda coup to talk about this, that I cannot believe that they did not use it, especially as the article refers to terrorists, murderers, boys and soldiers in such an obvious way.
"Bottom line is, Iqbal is right, we do need objective reporting."
My bottom line is please provide the source of your accusations. I am well used to disinformation being spread by trolls on the internet, and i am genuine enough to apologize if you can provide the evidence.
I am sympathetic to the families of the dead, after two years of hoping against hope that theri sons were still alive, just as I am sympathetic to the families of the children and relatives that were masacred at Qana, (twice) and numberless other 'collateral damage' of war. Nothing makes it right, nothing excuses beatings and deaths, but compare it to the mindless knife deaths ongoing in London, where is the excuse of war there? People are capable of horrific mindless atrocities, just look at the numbers of murders in the USA, every week. One has to have a little objectivity and not be taken by ones' bias towards one side or the other. the only thing that is important in all this, is that people can, and do, commit inhumanity to man, and usually in the name of some ideology or other. People need to think for themselves and taek everything with the proverbial pinch of salt, especially in the 'news' and even more so on the internet, because there are obvious disinformation specialists at work, and even if you discount those, people write from their 'positions' from both sides, and are blind to their own bias, more often than not.
Ibrahim
Hi Ibrahim,
The Daily Telegraph (UK newspaper) has been a bit more balanced I think, one of their articles today did indeed mention that Kuntar was only 16 at the time, and the Telegraph is where I read this paragraph:
"United Nations officials identified the bodies, which were described as "mutilated", before they were transferred to Israel for DNA testing."
It's on this page, I hope the link works okay:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/2304279/Israel-and-Hizbollah-complete-controversial-prisoner-exchange.html
As to the wider problem of media objectivity, I blame advertisers. That may seem a very strange thing to say, but broadcasters in particular want those advertising dollars, and programmes and stations that draw mass audiences earn the most advertising revenue. It means that standards will suffer, objectivity will suffer, as we are fed with what broadcasters think we want to see and hear.
You also wrote:
> the only thing that is important in all this, is that people can, and do, commit inhumanity to man, and usually in the name of some ideology or other.
Well, in the case of the teenage knife-killers you mention, they don't even have ideology as a "justification".
We do need to question where we are going, we do need to take the news with a pinch of salt as you say, we do need to start thinking for ourselves. I'm glad to see Avi's comments, they make us think and they should make us think, I just agree with Mary that he should stick to the rules of this site.
Ibrahim, I have posted a reply to you, but it seems to have vanished…
Ibrahim, here is another attempt to reply to your question about my source, I hope it gets through.
It was the Daily Telegraph (a UK newspaper), I hope the link works:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/2304279/Israel-and-Hizbollah-complete-controversial-prisoner-exchange.html
This is what it said:
"United Nations officials identified the bodies, which were described as "mutilated", before they were transferred to Israel for DNA testing."
In reply to your other points, you say, correctly, "people can, and do, commit inhumanity to man, and usually in the name of some ideology or other." I would add, since you mention the teenage knife-killers in London, that I don't think there is any ideology they can cite. So yes, we all have to think for ourselves and not just have knee-jerk reactions or simply swallow whatever the media throws at us. We should take it with a pinch of salt, as you say, we should question, otherwise knife crime is just a taste of where we are going and what is going to happen to us. We should question what we are told.
Whatever religion we are, we have the same Creator, and He made us so that we could behave like wild animals, and He also made us so we could choose not to behave like wild animals. Which should we choose?
Also I'm glad that Avi is posting here as well, we need to be challenged to think, but I hope he follows Mary's plea and sticks to the rules of this list.
Ibrahim, here is another attempt to reply to your question about my source, I hope it gets through.
[Just tried again and it got lost again, so posting this without a link.]
It was the Daily Telegraph (a UK newspaper) and this is what it said:
"United Nations officials identified the bodies, which were described as "mutilated", before they were transferred to Israel for DNA testing."
In reply to your other points, you say, correctly, "people can, and do, commit inhumanity to man, and usually in the name of some ideology or other." I would add, since you mention the teenage knife-killers in London, that I don't think there is any ideology they can cite. So yes, we all have to think for ourselves and not just have knee-jerk reactions or simply swallow whatever the media throws at us. We should take it with a pinch of salt, as you say, we should question, otherwise knife crime is just a taste of where we are going and what is going to happen to us. We should question what we are told.
Whatever religion we are, we have the same Creator, and He made us so that we could behave like wild animals, and He also made us so we could choose not to behave like wild animals. Which should we choose?
Also I'm glad that Avi is posting here as well, we need to be challenged to think, but I hope he follows Mary's plea and sticks to the rules of this list.
DidcotMan on July 17th, 2008 at 15:56:
It was the Daily Telegraph (a UK newspaper) and this is what it said:
“United Nations officials identified the bodies, which were described as “mutilated”, before they were transferred to Israel for DNA testing.”
Thanks for replying even if you had trouble. I will check it out and duly apologize as by inference
I was accusing you of misinformation or worse.
It is my experience that misinformation perpetrators almost never reply or come up with the link to 'their' information. I'm glad to have been proved wrong in this case.
Many people take as gospel what they read on the internet, especially on blogs and news sites like this one.
I myself have written stuff which has been published. I am biased as are most people, without their knowing to what extent. After publication I sometimes get embarrassing messages that praise me for my wonderful insight and all that and go on with long ideological screeds which have almost nothing to do with what I wrote.
On the other hand, I sometimes read what I had written some time ago and see the 'cause of the moment' glaringly obvious to me now, with little real objectivity or understanding of the issues for the very people involved, such as a Palestinian losing his house to the bulldozer, or the Israelis who lose their loved ones to the suicide bomber.
One thing I have become increasingly aware of is that the 'news' is so 'managed' as to be laughable, and the worst thing is that millions of people lap it up.
I do not pretend to be a 'thinker' or an intellectual or have special knowledge or insight into these things, but to crucify an old adage – "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like". which of course is funny on one level, but think about it for a minute. If you know what you like, and even if it is objectively good, where di you get that ability, to know what you like. Another useful phrase that comes to mind is the 'I smell a rat" which people sometimes say when something is not quite right.
It is not intellectual reasoning that comes to that kind of conclusion but something on the so-called gut level.
Enough lecturing
Ibrahim
DidcotMan on July 17th, 2008 at 15:56:
It was the Daily Telegraph (a UK newspaper) and this is what it said:
“United Nations officials identified the bodies, which were described as “mutilated”, before they were transferred to Israel for DNA testing.”
Quite correct
I would point out that there was little photo journalism or mention of the coffins going the other way.
Only on the 'murderer' and little mention also of the 'crimes' of the other four live swappees and lurid details in some outlets of the head bashing on the rock of the four year old.
Ibrahim
Some of the problems we are facing is that many of the famous medias belonging to our region and talking about it, are dealing with our issues according to the enemies points of view, but not to the reality.
Do they know about what they are doing? the answer seems to be YES.
While others, as it is well indicated in this article, they Know very well how to gain more supporters for their goals, even they know they are not telling the truth.
Thank you Mrs Iqbal for the efforts.
A timely reminder that even our supposed liberal and progressive newspapers can be just as anti Palestine as the tabloids. A very well written piece.
Interesting that Omri and Avi were not able to work out, or did not want to deal with the fact that this article was about blatant media bias.Didcot you mentioned mutilated bodies what wasWhat the condition of the 199 bodes returned from Israel???While approximately 93% of the worlds media is controlled by 6 zionest owned corporations what else can we expect but biased reporting.Is there alink between the fact that the ideals of journalism (an unbiased reporting of facts) has beeen destroyed along with the destruction of the ideals of democracy?What we need to teach our children and those around us is to look beyond the headlines, and to get the news from a wide variety of media sources.
Alkhansa > Didcot you mentioned mutilated bodies what wasWhat the condition of the 199 bodes returned from Israel???
I don't know, have Hizbollah said? If any were, would that justify anything?
The thing about unbiased reporting is that all the facts are presented, each side doesn't leave out stuff that is embarrassing or awkward to it. If the Israelis had mutilated any of the bodies I would hope that would get reported, in fact, I'm sure it would be. But so far I haven't heard that the UN has said anything and I think we can draw our own conclusions about that. In fact, that's just what we have been talking about above, taking information, questioning it as you have rightly done, and thinking about it.
I have noticed that all the regular NGO's and the MSM have been all but silent to the fact that the two soldiers were captured alive and returned in coffins. Had Israel captured people alive and returned them dead I seriously doubt the "zionist" owned media would have skipped over such a detail.
BTW Zionist owned media is the hight of paranoid delusion.
As for being unbiased and honest this post says Israeli soldieries were on another countries sovereign land. The facts are that the army of god launched a coordinated attack to capture the soldiers that were in Israeli territory.
Mary sorry some of what you said doesn't make any sense to me so I don't know what to say about it.
As for “how would you put the genocide that Israel conducted in 2006 in Lebanon” I would put it this way. If the army of god hadn't launched an attack against Israeli soldieries then waged war from among the Lebanese civilians the war would never have happened and civilian deaths would have been minimal. To expect to attack and capture human beings to be used as trade currency was and is the hight of lunacy and inhumane behavior.
Then “they never did a day in prison or sat for a second in a court of law.” You mean like the two Israeli soldiers had a day in court. How many visits from the Red Cross has Shalit had? When is his day in court? How much unbiased coverage does that get in the zionist owned and biased MSM after 2 years?
Avi….
You "hate" people and your condescending remarks toward me makes me think that you need to "get help", and I say that with 40 years of experience in Psychology…so I have the education to back up what I say. I did not comment on the articles truth or un-truth. I commented on Big Media Propaganda….thats all!! Where do you get off talking about someone you don't know from the Man on the Moon? Who are you? I've been bringing "truth" to the public for over 40 years and will continue to do so without the likes of you. Here's your number:
Delusions are commonly defined as a fixed false belief, and are used in everyday language to describe a belief that is false, fanciful or derived from deception. The psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:
* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
There is a difference between mutilation and decomposing.
Some reader here suggested that the bodies of the two soldiers were mutilated…this is not true. As a matter of fact this is another kind of media manipulation.
You can read in the Haaretz Israeli newspaper
‘After receiving the bodies, an Israeli forensics expert said that they were in very poor condition, having not been preserved well'.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1002425.html
The Hezbollah are not used to or prepared as Israel regarding freezing bodies, one might expect part of the bodies to be decomposed. One thing I am sure of, regardless you believe it or not, there is a strong emphasis against mutilating bodies from religious point of view of the Hezbollah. There might be a different of opinions regarding killing an armed enemy, but mutilation of any body is out of question regardless of which it belongs to…full stop.
Besides from the common sense point of view, it is not of Hezbollah’s interest to do so, they wanted to keep the bodies in the best condition to exchange them with their own prisoners. If they want to mutilate the bodies why were they satisfied with ' a little bit'? Why didn't they do it all over!
The answer is…
Again … this is another media game, someone have been able to play with the words, changing the word from ‘decomposed’ to ‘mutilated’ makes a great difference. It is another manipulation of the reader's feelings.
Superbad, you seem to believe that soldiers going on a hostile border, fully geared and on a mission are just innocent guys who accidentally found themselves there? I hope you believe it, because you have a very naive perception of how international conflicts go. On the other hand, the capture was indeed a pretext, as has been made clear by many declarations of Israeli officials.
Anyway, even IF, (and here we can stretch the imagination far) the whole devastation of the war was only a reaction to the capture of two Israelis, don't you think Israel risked a lot? Don't you think their reaction was an enormously violent over-reaction that caused devastation to a tremendously large part of the population that had nothing to do with the conflict?
How do you explain the destruction of the generator that did not hold fuel for weaponry? How do you explain the bombing of Leban Lait? Or the entire Ba'aka area? How do you explain the cluster bombs, and the bombing of all the bridges and roads? The dropping of leaflets telling the civilians to get out or to be killed from missiles?
Seems a bit much for the offense. And, not a single Israeli has ever been tried for the damages and the destruction. Yet. But, since war crimes have no "prescription", they can be tried anytime in the future, and they will be, rest assured.
The soldiers died immediately from their wounds, not kidnapped and killed later
An Israeli website (Israel national news) says:
Goldwasser died from a wound to the chest that resulted from the rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) that hit the Hummer he was riding in. Regev was shot in the head, possibly while trying to escape the burning Hummer.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Subscribe/Preview.aspx?type=1
This will answer a comment made by one reader here. The soldiers were injured inside their Hummer when it was hit. Can you tell me what a Hummer was doing inside the Lebanese territories?
Mary yes Israel did risk a lot and they gave up a good bit as well to get back their dead and mutilated bodies as well. This is apparently how it goes when you care about your people a point I'm sure that will be lost on most of the Arab world.
Was the generator used to power radar or missile systems I don't know. And perhaps Israel didn't either do you want me to make things up like most of your commenter's and story posters do? Well then I'll guess it wasn't a generator at all and in fact was a device used to make Jews insane with rage so they would fire missiles at ice cream trucks. If you don't know why an army would bomb bridges and roads you should learn a little something about military strategy it can be a somewhat interesting topic. Dropping of leaflets sheesh that's to give innocent civilians an opportunity to leave a war zone before an attack comes. I guess you aren't aware of that either as civilians are often the intended target of cowardly Jew haters that after killing a bunch of unarmed Jewish civilians become known as hero's in the Arab world.
BTW "I'm jealous of the Zionists, who don't spare any effort to bring back captured soldiers or soldiers' bodies," convicted killer Samir Kuntar, who was released Wednesday in Israel's prisoner swap with Hizbullah, told the group's Al Manar TV on Friday.
Looks like beside getting fat and an education while in the Israeli gulag he learned something about them as well. Maybe he should star his own "Think Tank".
If the Palestinian cause is so just why all the lies, exaggerations and propaganda?
To Superbad
Answers to your Comments in italics:
'Mary yes Israel did risk a lot and they gave up a good bit as well to get back their dead and mutilated bodies as well'.
Dear, there were no mutilated bodies, this is another media fabrication, and there was not well preserved body which lead to partial decomposition. This means it was not deliberate or intended.
' This is apparently how it goes when you care about your people a point I'm sure that will be lost on most of the Arab world'.
Why you are lashing now on all Arab worlds, if you are negotiating to find the truth, you are supposed to stick to the facts and who are involved only, and not distract the readers by hopping from one zone to another. Most writers and readers on this website are professional journalists, researchers, and human rights activists. It is not going to work if you imagine that you can kick your shoes to cause a storm of dust to divert their attention.
'I'll guess it wasn't a generator at all and in fact was a device used to make Jews insane with rage so they would fire missiles at ice cream trucks.'
This is naughty; you are here inserting a little doze of hatred but we will not swallow it. DO NOT use the Jews expression in this story, it’s not about Jews, it is about Zionists. Many good Jews are against all blood shed like we are. Judaism is something and the aggression of the Zionist system is something else.
'If you don't know why an army would bomb bridges and roads you should learn a little something about military strategy it can be a somewhat interesting topic'.
Really? So you know about the military strategies? are you someone of military experience? If so …I hope you would know that even army personnel have or should have ethics. And part of these ethics is not to target children and family homes. Unless you consider the Israeli cluster bombs some kind of sweeties you are offering the Palestinian children.
'Dropping of leaflets sheesh that's to give innocent civilians an opportunity to leave a war zone before an attack comes.'
How very thoughtful of you, so you know that they were innocent civilians yet you are determined to wrick their homes, and you drop them leaflets to tell them how much time they have left before their shelter from rain, and their beds, and belongings are going to be turned into dust. How very sweet and considerate.!!!!
Superbad on July 18th, 2008 at 9:57:
"If the Palestinian cause is so just why all the lies, exaggerations and propaganda?"
If the Israeli cause is so just why all the lies, exaggeration, censoring of the news world wide, and propaganda?
Superbad and others,
You keep mentioning that samir Kuntar is over weight,
I do not know how much you know about genetics and health, but the least I can tell you is being imprisoned in a cell of very limited dimentions does not leave one of much space to excercise. And being overweight is a sign of unbalanced bad diet… this is the rubish that Kuntar was fed inside Israeli prisons. I hope human rights organizations pick your comment and go to investigate what the prisoners are fed in Israel, and how their medical compalints are met, and compare all that with Internationa legestlations related to treatment of prisoners… I look forward to read the outcome of their investigations. I can assure you, you will feel sorry that you brought this point up.
Iqbal, I don't have time to play games with you all day so let me just say these few things. In the link you posted one of the comments is abused not mutilated my mistake. But really we are splitting hairs here. These two men were taken alive and in my opinion killed by not being given medial treatment. being taken alive made them prisoners of war which the army of god killed and is fully responsible for. To me the only fabrication here is you believing what you want rather then the actual evidence and trying to make murders into heroes. Is this the professional journalism you speak of? Why all Arab you say because how many are saying Kuntar was a cold blooded murder and how many are calling him a hero? And I use the term Jews instead of zionist because anyone with an ounce of integrity would not try to hide the fact the Hiz Hamas and most others see no distinction between Jews Israelis and zionists. Hiz & Hamas have both clearly stated repeatedly that their goals are to kill all Jews everywhere. As to more professional journalism I would like to see the email you send to the author of the this story I read yesterday. http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://fpnp.net/arabic/%3Faction%3Ddetail%26id%3D17418&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfiras%2Bpress%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DY8&usg=ALkJrhgVzh3eSkIc9XdM4hXgLIYOuuz2BQ.
Really army ethics you really want to go there. When Palestinians fire rockets from schools and use mosques as weapons dumps. Leaf let dropping on towns wouldn't be required if the army they were fighting didn't drive their launch vehicles into the garages of homes and buildings. Any professional journalist would be well aware of the facts and wouldn't bring up such silly points.
Ibrahim “If the Israeli cause is so just why all the lies, exaggeration, censoring of the news world wide, and propaganda?” Didn't your mother ever teach you it's rude to answer a question with a question.
Iqbal, “I look forward to read the outcome of their investigations” Agreed. I would like the same investigations to be done with The Army of God and Hamas. You did notice the other 4 that were returned looked rather well and well groomed as well. I do remember noticing one of them was rather thin. I wonder if that was his genetics or if he was starved for the last 2 years.
Kuntar had a right to say that, being jailed in the apartheid state for so long. He obviously had strategic value to Israel who kept him alive for its own purposes, unlike countless others brutally murdered. How else would Israel hasbara grab the opportunity to repeat ad nauseum the unproven charge of his alleged crimes? No, he was worth more to the apartheid state alive. What's important is that *we're* certainly not jealous of the zionists, who use any pretext for destroying a nation's infrastructure as we saw in Lebanon. And you use his weight as a substitute for your vacuous comments and baseless, boring accusations against the good people at this site. Sharon got fat too. The lies, exaggeration and propaganda are all on your side of the fence, Superbad.
Iqbal Tamimi,
Very convincing indeed!
But let us now learn what you have to say about the fact that this monster, the hero of the Arab world, gained a BA in an Israeli jail.
Will you be saying that his parents paid the tuition!?
That the university he received his BA from is not one of the best in Israel!
That it is the basic rights of a murderer to study at a university! And thus no big deal!
I am sure you'll be able to come forth with good explanations.
If he could learn in an Israeli university while in jail, I am sure that the food he has eaten in jail was of high quality and in abudance. This is not the treatment that Israeli soldiers received from the Arabs.
To Superbad comment 35
Having directed your comment to me, I will answer…starting from the very beginning
(Iqbal, I don’t have time to play games with you all day)
Dear I don’t recall inviting you to play with me, and since you don’t have time to play you are excused, you can go…why do you keep coming back to my yard.
(These two men were taken alive and in my opinion killed by not being given medial treatment).
All the reports from the Israeli side confirmed after medical examination that at least one of them was killed instantly, and the other might have died within a very short time because the rocket hit their tank directly. You have not been reading. Besides are you angry because there is a possibility that one soldier on a mission was injured and the other side might have not done enough to offer him medical treatment? What about the thousands of innocent women, children, and old sick Palestinian prisoners inside Israeli prisons, who are dying of medical negligence? Have you ever read about how many children died in Gaza because Israel will not allow them to leave the siege area to seek medical help somewhere else? So… one soldier going on a military mission.. It’s the other side’s duty to keep him safe. While thousands of civilians do not deserve to see a doctor!!! I guess that you even do not know how to play…
( Being taken alive made them prisoners of war which the army of god killed and is fully responsible for).
So you want to tell us that Israel has been respecting the International laws regarding prisoners of war? I advise you to read about prisoners of war inside the Israeli prisons. After that come back and tell us what you think.
( To me the only fabrication here is you believing what you want rather then the actual evidence and trying to make murders into heroes).
Fabrication is something one do intentially, while one believing what he wants to is not… will you please make up your mind which one applies in my case please. I am extremely grateful for your psychological insight.
Regarding actual evidence…what actual evidence you are talking about? The evidence tailored perfectly well to fit the Israeli agenda… or the truth?
I have never said they were murderers, and I have never hinted they were heros. I have never passed any judgements at all. The article was about media manipulation, and here you are one of those who try to divert the whole issue of discussion as usual aiming to distract the readers of the atrocities of Israel against a nation.
(Is this the professional journalism you speak of?)
I don’t get it!!! Are you judging my journalistic skills dear? Well… I do not care less of any one judging my abilities, all I know that I do not have to be a journalist to defend the truth. But to relieve you of all this pain… Yes I am a professional journalist weather you approve or not. And this is why I am signing with my real full name, because I am proud of my achievements.
(Why all Arab you say because how many are saying Kuntar was a cold blooded murder and how many are calling him a hero?)
I guess I am a good journalist, but not a magician to unscramble the above sentence.
(And I use the term Jews instead of zionist because anyone with an ounce of integrity would not try to hide the fact the Hiz Hamas and most others see no distinction between Jews Israelis and zionists.)
Ok, now you are doubting my integrity! And lashing all over the place looking for something to lean on. Who are those ‘most others’ you are talking about? If you want to play a game of judging a journalist at least come to the game full geared…how would you know that those ‘others’ do not know the difference between the Jews and the Zionists? Are you now playing God?
( Hiz & Hamas have both clearly stated repeatedly that their goals are to kill all Jews everywhere.)
Regardless where you got this information from. I am not discussing Hamas or Hiz here… I have to remind you that I was talking about media and journalism. Besides many Zionists stated repeatedly that they will kill Arabs and Muslims…so …?
(As to more professional journalism I would like to see the email you send to the author of the this story I read yesterday. http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ar&u=http://fpnp.net/arabic/%3Faction%3Ddetail%26id%3D17418&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dfiras%2Bpress%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DY8&usg=ALkJrhgVzh3eSkIc9XdM4hXgLIYOuuz2BQ.)
OK…An old trick …What is this link dear? It never opens. All I know it has a translate link, If you are digging to find any thing wrong with my journalism go and study Arabic, because Arabic language is a language that can’t be translated through mechanical websites. You will get a meshmash of words turning any thing you say into a salad. Besides I never sent any e mails to any body. Play another trick, or please copy the e mail you claim I have sent and forward it to us all to see.
(Any professional journalist would be well aware of the facts and wouldn’t bring up such silly points.)
So from your point of view I am not a professional journalist… this is good, you can replace all the committees that they acknowledge my professionalism, they can all be made redundant. And I am silly too for bringing such ‘ silly points’.. thank you dear for being very polite and civilized and for showing your eagerness to make a good contribution to the discussion.
(Iqbal, You did notice the other 4 that were returned looked rather well and well groomed as well. I do remember noticing one of them was rather thin. I wonder if that was his genetics or if he was starved for the last 2 years.)
So what do you suggest again? do you want me to study medicine to be able to say that being overweight does not mean you have been treated well?. What do you suggest now? Should I take a course of nutrition disorders to become a journalist?
Iqbal, let's face it, you rock!!!! (I know that sounds dumb, but your replies are brilliant, nothing to add).
To Ronit comment 37
Your comments in brackets
(Will you be saying that his parents paid the tuition!?)
My dear it is part of a bigger policy, to keep active prisoners involved in any thing to distract them from seeking constructing groups within prisons, it is an old procedure. Kuntar was always under the International light, it is of Israel interest to show that he was treated according to International agreements. But what about the rest of the Palestinian prisoners? Thousands of them deprived of the minimum. Paying for his education is nothing compared to gaining a card to bargain with. Ask yourself why they did not just kill him? It would make more sense to kill a murderer than paying the expenses of keeping him for 30 years. If you knew the answer, then you have reached the point to know that his education fees are nothing compared with the expenses of keeping him alive and well for 30 years…it’s not because of the goodness of the state, but because he is considered as a valuable card in negotiations. This is politics not human care.
If Israel is so conscious about education, it should have stopped wricking schools, imprisoning school students and teachers, fund disabled children’s playgroups instead of demolishing playgrounds. They should stop cutting water supplies from schools. This is the reason the UNISON and other academics and unionists in UK are fighting to boycott Israeli Academic institutions, because their colleagues did not put more efforts to help other academics in Palestine and stop harassing school children. Palestinian Education system was targeted by Israel. If you are really interested in Peace read about how Israel bombed the School of Bahr Albaqar killing 30 children on the 8th of April 1970.
(If he could learn in an Israeli university while in jail, I am sure that the food he has eaten in jail was of high quality and in abudance. This is not the treatment that Israeli soldiers received from the Arabs).
I would like to know the source of your information or any information you have about the quality of food Israeli soldiers are receiving in any Arab country.
Iqubal I call it playing games because it was rather obvious that trying to have a reasonable conversation with you would be a waste of time. Thank you for proving me correct.
You say the other might have died a short time after because of the rocket hit. A bullet to the head often has that affect. I do like the repeated use of the word of the mission these men were on. Driving a vehicle on the Israeli side of the border was obviously such a terrible act that required being countered by a cross border invasion. You also speak of the the lack of medical attention people in Gaza get from Israel. First why is it the obligation of Israel to give Gazans medical treatment? Second I wonder if you consider the use of ambulances and people that have been sent on suicide missions that claim they are going to seek medical attention in Israel at all as part of the reason why Palestinians have trouble getting access to Israeli hospitals.
You have issues with how Israel treats prisoners. That's fine. By any comparison they are obviously treated far better then Israeli prisoners are. At the very least Israel keeps them alive allows them visits and schooling. I would be interested if you could reference even 1 case where an Israeli prisoner has been returned alive.
You also claim I try to distract the readers when I refer to actual evidence which by the way you have presented none of. What I was referring to is the examination of the bodies of the returned Israeli soldiers which the story you linked to said their bodies where abused. Then you go into distraction yourself saying you haven't called anyone one a hero or passed judgment. I can understand your confusion here. I was in a hurry and was not very clear. You seem to think I was referring to you because you seem to be rather full of yourself. Something I am noticing is is common among posters here. What I was referring to is how in the Arab world people that kill themselves in the service of political Islam especially when that suicide results in the death of Jews how they are hailed as hero's.
I find that to be one of the more interesting things in the Arab worlds belief system. That is that if you are a successful killer you are respected and hailed as a hero. In most nations people like doctors and scientist are considered roll models. In the Arab world people that blow themselves up buses full of civilians are roll models. Sure everyone has their war heros but the are often those that have given their lives or risked it to save other. The Arab world seem the opposite.
I don't really want to spend more time now going on with the rest of your post perhaps later.
I wold though appreciate if you have the time to share your thoughts as a professional journalist on the treatment of Israeli prisoners like Gilad Schalit for whom I believe there has not been a single visit to or any verifiable proof of his still being alive after 2 years. Thank you in advance.
I would like to give my two cents regarding the ongoing 'myth', in my opinion, of the Hezbollah fighters hiding among civilians – the cowards.
Put yourself for a moment in anyone's shoes that has a wife and children, and have been trained in weaponry of some sort, like rocket firing.
Do you think it likely that 'Mr Ali' would say to his children and wife, I'm going down to the rocket firing position we have set up yesterday, now you come along and watch me shoot the rockets?
The normal scenario would be, 'take good care of my children, take them to safety – I have to go and fight the zionist army'.
Which do you honestly think is the most likely? Would a man put his children deliberately in harms way?
Of course you could say that the fighters are mad, ideologically driven, so they are likely to do anything, just like the other side, with their 'philosophy' of getting children to sign messages on tank shells destined for Lebanon or Palestine.
The ideology of the extremists of both sides, is quite sick .
But I have seen documentaries where Jews, 9yes that dastardly word0, have been visiting Palestinian towns and villages, to try to make peace on the ground with real people, instead of 'representatives' and 'ideologues' and what happens? The are not shot, not stoned, the are invited to have tea!
How do you zionist thinkers account for that and the many instances where Jews stand shoulder to shoulder with Palestinians protecting their land and olive trees from 'settlers'. Of course most of them are deluded 'rabbis' and peaceniks and should be disregarded, after all none of what they do is likely to lead to a better understanding , let alone move anyone to question what is going on, in case it might (gasp) lead to dialogue and eventually to peace.
To Superbad comment 41
(Iqubal I call it playing games because it was rather obvious that trying to have a reasonable conversation with you would be a waste of time).
Why would you waste your precious time again, can’t you make up your mind if you want to play with me again or not?
(You also speak of the lack of medical attention people in Gaza get from Israel. First why is it the obligation of Israel to give Gazans medical treatment?)
No dear, I never said or even hinted that Israel humane enough to a point it should give medical attention to the people of Gaza. God forbid that I would think in such a way. All I said is that Israel would not allow the Gaza patients to leave the sieged city to seek medical attention any where. People died on the road check point, besides blocking the way of trucks bringing medical aid. I know that one can’t expect someone who is opening his wounds wide open to give him a compassionate hug.
(Second I wonder if you consider the use of ambulances and people that have been sent on suicide missions that claim they are going to seek medical attention in Israel at all as part of the reason why Palestinians have trouble getting access to Israeli hospitals.)
Now you misunderstood the whole thing, there is not even one incident of the kind, while there are tens of incidents of Israeli forces attacking and targeting ambulances, and blocking the way of rescue teams, and savagely injuring people working in humanitarian rescue.
(By any comparison they are obviously treated far better then Israeli prisoners are)
Again you are going in circles; you will get dizzy trying to find just one proof of mistreating an Israeli soldier by any other group. Get us one reference of such accusation first then come back to face us with it.
( At the very least Israel keeps them alive allows them visits and schooling).
Oh I started feeling sorry for you, have you been driven by anger that you did not read my answer regarding why prisoners are kept alive, and the schooling thing.
(You also claim I try to distract the readers when I refer to actual evidence which by the way you have presented none of)
I advise you to take a deep breath, and ask yourself what actual evidence you referred to you have presented. You are creating an illusion and you insist that we should buy it….no darling… we are immune against fabrications. Regarding me I have done my research. If you are passionate about the truth do some research especially about Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons (written by me…and others).
(Then you go into distraction yourself saying you haven’t called anyone one a hero or passed judgment. I can understand your confusion here)
No honey, no one can distract me when I’m working on human rights. How very nice and considerate of you after questioning my skills as a journalist, and describing me as being silly.. that now you are showing sympathy and understanding to my ‘confusion’…oh…where have you been hiding all my life, I needed that understanding sooooooooo bad.
( I was in a hurry and was not very clear)
Ok, take your time since you decided to play with us, slow down and clarify whatever you intend to knit here before rushing into writing.
(You seem to think I was referring to you because you seem to be rather full of yourself).
‘Seem to think’…and ‘seem to be’ again? How very lucky I am to act upon what ‘seems to be’ you gave me a good idea about the usage of the ‘seem’ expression. Regarding describing me as full of myself …it ‘seems’ I do, how did you notice.
(What I was referring to is how in the Arab world people that kill themselves in the service of political Islam especially when that suicide results in the death of Jews how they are hailed as hero’s.)
Ok now we are not discussing media. You want to steer us to talk about Arab world and political Islam. I have made myself clear tens of times that I am talking about media manipulations in this article, but you insist to drag me to a very wide pool where you can splash as much mud as you please. It seems that the temptation is far beyond your ability to resist. You told us many times how short you are of time, and how you don’t want to play with us, yet you keep bringing all your toys to my window. Ok don’t you think also that Israel itself is built on Political Judaism? How come some are allowed to create whatever kind of ideology they believe in, while others can’t?
(I find that to be one of the more interesting things in the Arab worlds belief system. That is that if you are a successful killer you are respected and hailed as a hero).
Ahaaa, at last there is something interesting in the Arab world, do you mean that Israel have something in common with them, as far as I know Ehud Barak, the certified Zionist war criminal, was responsible for the murder of hundreds of Palestinian children during the first few months of the Aqsa Intifada in 2000 and 2001.
Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency, who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity to kill the British in Palestine , and responsible for the King David Hotel bombing.
And Ariel Sharon the murderer of 1.700 Palestinian civilians in the Sabra and Chatila massacre in 1982
And on .. and on…It seems you have a long list of killers to brag about.
(In most nations people like doctors and scientist are considered roll models. In the Arab world people that blow themselves up buses full of civilians are roll models.)
What about the role models in Israel I have mentioned above?
( Sure everyone has their war heros but the are often those that have given their lives or risked it to save other. The Arab world seem the opposite.)
Ok , it seems you are haunted by a demon called the Arab world, why don’t you tell us if you have enough courage to talk about the good leaders of Israel, especially those who are cowards enough to build a wall between family property and schools because they do not want to negotiate, and because they are greedy they want to steel the land, and want its owners dead.
(I don’t really want to spend more time now going on with the rest of your post perhaps later. )
Promises, promises… please don’t go.
(I would though appreciate if you have the time to share your thoughts as a professional journalist on the treatment of Israeli prisoners like Gilad Schalit for whom I believe there has not been a single visit to or any verifiable proof of his still being alive after 2 years)
So I am now approved as a journalist by you? Hallelujah…you made my day.
Dear why don’t you ask your government why they do not allow visits to thousands of the Palestinian prisoners, and why they deprive them of seeing their lawyers, and deny them warm clothes sent to them by their family members in the winter, why human rights establishments members are denied visits to Palestinian prisoners…find those answers first then you will know the answer of your question on your own.
By the way, you started your comment by expressing the feelings of not wanting to waste your time talking to me any more. You ended your comment inviting me to offer you more answers to your questions… and because I am a professional journalist, I would advise you not to do that if you are intending to practice journalism. This might be taken as a sign of an amateurish approach that would harm the cause you are defending.
Iqbal Tamimi on July 19th, 2008 at 14:32:
wow, very amusing and erudite Iqbal – I would not like to be your enemy!
Ibrahim Turner
I feel, I am in deep feelings of pain. I am torn apart. People are killed on both sides. And the media which is supposed to be the conscious of people is turning to become only a buisness. The Press is supposed to play a better role, look at the most widely distributed newspapers and have a good look. How much it does really speak on behalf of the ordinary citizens. It was not amusing at all, but when you cut the throat of a bird, he will jerk violently that some might think the bird is dancing of joy.
When I meet journalists they are the most humane people who know ethics, but when articles are published it tells another story.
I wonder if the articles are ' adjusted' here and there to fit a certain policy, and then journalists are hold responsible.
Iqbal, (Why would you waste your precious time again, can’t you make up your mind if you want to play with me again or not?)
I'm willing to play I have a little more time today.
(there is not even one incident of the kind)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38747
I can find you several more if you like.
(just one proof of mistreating an Israeli soldier by any other group.) I guess you've already forgotten about the 2 soldiers being returned dead that were taken alive. And my several mentions of Schalit. I suppose to you killing Jews is not mistreating them.
(why [Israeli] prisoners are kept alive) please refresh my memory. BTW I'm not at all angry with you sweetie.
(especially about Palestinian prisoners) I am most interested in the truth. I find it's hard to locate among all the propaganda. What I do consider is things that are known and not disputed like prisoners in Israel returning home which occurs in the thousands. I await your showing me where I can find information of the same being done to Israeli detainees specifically those that are still alive.
(What about the role models in Israel I have mentioned above?) You haven't responded to why Arabs see murders as as roll models. I believe this is connected to journalism and much more.
As to the cowardly wall and not wanting to negotiate. First since the wall has been in place the number if Israeli citizens killed in terror attacks has gone down considerably so it works. To negotiating you mean like in Camp David where Arafat signed a treaty while at the same time starting the intifada. Very worth while negotiations.
(find those answers first then you will know the answer of your question on your own.) If you already know this save me the time which I have so little of and let me know where I can find this information. I don't believe this to be true. Have you ever been in an Israeli prison do you speak from first hand knowledge? Additionally if you find it acceptable for this to be done to Israeli prisoners isn't it hypocritical of you to cry out against this treatment for prisoners in Israel if it is so?
I'm off to the gym now and then to get my teeth sharpened then dinner. I'll try to get back to you tomorrow honey.
Iqbal Tamimi on July 19th, 2008 at 14:32:
wow, very amusing and erudite Iqbal – I would not like to be your enemy!
I did not mean to come across as light weight on the deaths and perhaps on reflection the word amusing should have not been used. I was merely commenting on your sharpness of mind in the dispute of the facts and opinions with superbad. I apologize.
Ibrahim
Superbad comment 46
(http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38747)
The above is an accusation made against the UN and the Red Cross that they offer cover for terrorists, it was one of those made up films for propaganda. That explains why not even one USA media outlet would show it even though they would leap for such chance. If the Palestinians could hijack an ambulance they would have done so to transfer the cancer patients who died after suffering because there is no medication for them in Gaza.
( I guess you’ve already forgotten about the 2 soldiers being returned dead that were taken alive)
How many times you have to bring this up, and how many times I have to remind you that Israel has killed people in thousands not 2 people only. The soldiers you are talking about are back, but many Palestinians killed by Israel and never returned, read few names here in this link
http://palestinethinktank.com/2008/07/04/iqbal-tamimi-will-you-remember-my-name/
( And my several mentions of Schalit. I suppose to you killing Jews is not mistreating
them.)
OK what about Mervat Taha, Manal Ghanem, Samar Subaih and Fatima Alziq who are supposed to be alive. And what about
Ayat Alakhras
Dareen Abu Eshah
Wafaa Edrees
Hanadi Jaradat
Hiba Daraghme
Who are supposed to be dead. If you want people to treat you good, you should treat them that way too….
(I am most interested in the truth. I find it’s hard to locate among all the propaganda)
Propaganda?? This is your game honey.. get me a list of the names of your supposed to be prisoners, and compare them with a list of over 11.000 Palestinian prisoner in 30 Israeli jails. Those I am talking about are the living ones. There are a large number of dead Palestinians still kept in mass graves and cold rooms. I will send a rare picture of one of those mass graves numbered. I hope the moderator of the website will present it to everybody.
(You haven’t responded to why Arabs see murders as as roll models. I believe this is connected to journalism and much more. )
You haven’t responded to why Israeli settlers see murderers as role models. I would like to remind you that one of your role models killed 29 people during prayers in Alibrahimi Mosque in Hebron in March 1993 this is my home town.
( First since the wall has been in place the number if Israeli citizens killed in terror attacks has gone down considerably so it works.)
What about thousands of Palestinians families killed slowly because they are separated from their only source of living, their olive orchards, and relatives? Why don’t you think of the others too. Do you suggest that the human life on one side is worthy of protection while other souls on the other side are not?
(If you already know this save me the time which I have so little of)
Sweetheart, has any one told you that I have been appointed as your own secretary?
(I don’t believe this to be true)
So you call me a lier?
(Have you ever been in an Israeli prison do you speak from first hand knowledge?)
I can assure you there is no Palestinian family that does not have few family members inside an Israeli prison, or have relatives shot down by the Israeli forces. 20 % of the Palestinian population have been imprisoned by Israel, and this is the highest percentage in the world. And as a human rights activist like many other who happen not to be born Palestinians like myself, we know perfectly well what does it feel like to be a prisoner. If you want, you can ask your government why it has returned back British MP visitors from the airport because they came to investigate.
(I’m off to the gym now and then to get my teeth sharpened then dinner. I’ll try to get back to you tomorrow honey.)
Since I am Palestinian I stopped going to the gym, your government made us run all the time. We are being chased even in our dreams. Shape your teeth well; you might one day want to taste how bitter my flesh is.
Ibrahim Turner
I know that very well, I have my own natural compass, I can feel when people are aiming to hurt, and when they are being involved sincerely.
I only wanted to share with you my real feelings, it is amazing how compassion can make of total strangers brothers and sisters, they can talk to each other about their feelings of hurt and dissapointment.
Thank you for your kind comment.
Regev and Goldwasser were in Israel when kidnapped. Fact. Kuntar murdered an innocent child. Fact. What he may have witnessed which prompted such a barbaric act, nor his age at the time are relevant. There is no way to debate this because there are two distinct value systems here. One value system deplores Kuntar's act while the other hails it as heroic. There is no grey in between. Like many Israelis said on the day when Kuntar received his victory celebratory welcome, "We're not like them."
The journalism being condemned is written by those whose value system was forged by the Old Testament, said to be revered even by Muslims. The Old Testament makes good and bad quite clear. In it, Kuntar is a depraved murderer and no context changes that. You cannot be an apologist for such an act by declaring a context. There is always a context. The hero's welcome Kuntar received reminds the world of just those societies G-d deemed a desecration to holy soil and who had to be driven out. If he world thinks Lebanon has gone mad, and reports it with this implication, it is because the Old Testament's values still have the influence they were meant to have by our Creator, at least for most of us.
PS….forgot to ask if anyone can explain why Palestinian leadership hasn't put to use the millions of dollars in aid it receives to build infrastructure, an indigenous economy, etc? Why are the territories still dependent on Israel for vital needs? The hardships suffered by the those living in Gaza and the West Bank should blame their own leadership. This isn't propaganda. Show me where the money went!!!
Robin, as to "Aid", perhaps you aren't aware of the terminology in use. "Donations" (as per the Donor conference recently for Bethlehem) is a word that is used to express the concept of private investors putting money into projects they approve of and generally also direct. The recent one was to establish ecnomic normalisation with Israel and to increase the PA security guard (military police used only against other Palestinian factions and used only by the Al Fatah faction) in the West Bank to maintain a political stability that the West sees as being acceptable.
There is not a flow of other monies coming in, as most bank accounts going to Palestinian charities (some of the only ways to have money enter) are blocked by governments because they have these orders from Israel and Washington to do so.
As to Kunter, strangely enough, the Man is not a Muslim. He is a Lebanese Druze, those that Israel tolerates, actually. Strangely enough, he has always denied killing the child and her father, and today, I found in Italian an article about the lack of evidence except for a member of the assault squads who in his testimony said he didn't know the cause of death.
If you read Italian: http://www.effedieffe.com/content/view/3921/167/
If you don't see what you can find on it. It is not entirely as the media has presented it.
Of course Israelis aren't like "them", they accept the mass killings of Arabs and even justify them as either collateral damage, mistakes, security risks and of course, they deserved it for being in the way of Israeli grandeur.
The fact that Kuntar is a Druze is inconsequential. The arab world is not wholly Muslim, but certainly the majority are and it is for that reason that I mentioned it. As for the funding flowing to HAMAS, here, from the pages of the JAWA Report webstie: "US$ 41.9 million project, funded by the World Bank ($19M), the governments of Canada ($0.6M), Italy ($9.7M), Saudi Arabia ($2.5M), and the United Kingdom ($8.4M), the Islamic Development Bank ($1.1M) and the Welfare Association ($0.6M).
The PNGO gave a grant of $12,900 to the Al Salah Islamic Society to help finish the Hamas run medical clinic in the al Maghazi "refugee camp" (think city) in Gaza.
So, we (US taxpayers) indirectly funded Hamas through the World Bank. The British, Canadians, and Italians even more directly funded Hamas through the PNGO.
The other source of revenue….THE STATE OF ISRAEL!
So, again I ask, where does all this money go?
Beyond this, the Bible has NO mention of Palestinians. They are a 20th century invention. Jerusalem, as you probably know, is not mentioned ONCE in the Koran.
One clarification…. NO MONIES are received by Palestine From the State of Israel. Monies owed tp Palestine is given to the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah which is NOT the elected government of Palestine.
Funds that ARE in possession of Hamas or Hamas affiliated organisations are often tied up or blocked by the Israeli or American government making it impossible to use those funds to benefit the people they were meant for.
As for the two Israeli soldiers, they were not kidnapped i Israel. They were well within Lebanese territory.
Israel sent troops across the border into Lebanon. They then claimed the captured invaders were "kidnap victims" and launched their attacks. It's all part of their 'game'.
Read this article with a translation of a LETTER FROM OLMERT'S OFFICE transferring millions to Hamas!
"In an unprecedented move, the office of Israel's Prime Minister admitted today that it is allowing the transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars to the Hamas in Gaza due to "Israeli political considerations."
http://galileanword.blogspot.com/2008/06/pm-to-terror-victims-i-transfer-money_26.html
The office of the Israeli Prime Minister also stated many times that it is seeking a peaceful solution to the Israeli/Palestinian crisis.
They also stated that the Prime Minister himself is not corrupt, but those that claim he is are pathological liars.
Just who are we to believe?
I will translate your articles, Iqbar!
Dear Avi,
I know Jesus Christ. I do Not belong to any church or religion, but I have Known him, felt him, heard him. I try to live by his words. He was given to the Jews but only per chance, but he is MAN for all. All i can tell you is I know him. He is Love. He is life. I believe and love Mohammed as well. This isnot to detract from Mohammed. Allah is God, is Dios, is Bog. Same diety for all. I am not sure about a physical entity called God-Allah, but but i know there is a life force that guides all living things.
I am in my 62s and in my life i have been near death several times. Quite close. One commandment i learned long ago was to never deny that i know Him. I just love him.
You do not make me angry when you tell me to go to hell. Hell is here on earth, but so is Heaven.
But i am not trying to convertanyone to anything. I know He is quite happy with you being what you want to be, so do not feel threatened.
I know He is with the Palestinian people and with all who suffer.
Here's the link to the Spanish version
http://www.tlaxcala.es/pp.asp?reference=5573&lg=es
Keep doing your great job!
Thank you Fawdawi for your effort, I don't know if it is possible to edit the name of the writer it is Iqbal Tamimi, not Tamini.
It's possible! I helped found Tlaxcala, so I will get on the case! Thanks Fawdawi for pointing it out. By the way, almost half of the material present on this site is available in other languages, as many Tlaxcalans select the material directly from this site. I am always pleasantly surprised to find the articles in languages I didn't expect such as Portuguese, Swedish, etc.!
I have been told that it was also translated to French by Tlaxcala, I do admire the work and effort of every single one of those who do put all their efforts to convey a message. I salute the Tlaxcala team, and thank each and every one of them. Thank you Mary.
Yes, it's in Spanish, which also means it went to the largest alternative Spanish language site, Rebelion, since our Spanish translators cross post their work. This means it will have a million people visit that site this week alone. It's being done into French right now, which also means it will go on loads of sites including Reseau Voltaire, Alterinfo, ISM France, etc… Language isn't a barrier anymore for information that is not on the NYTimes! This was our goal from the beginning, and after 15,000 articles and translations in about 18 languages, I can say we've really done something good in a little over 2 years! Who ever would have dreamed of it. And it just started with three friends complaining that we sure would like to have some organisation to spread the information into the languages we used in our daily lives, none of which were English, but most of the articles that we would see were in English.
The activist translators of Tlaxcala are the greatest people. Really dedicated and extremely talented. I am so proud it exists. It is really an oasis in a desert of communications, and it can only grow.
But, without great texts, able to reach the sensibilities and hearts of people, texts like yours, there would be no point at all!
Not being multilingual I had no idea that there was such a team doing translations of all this stuff.
More power to their elbow/pens.
The pen is mightier than the sword!
You have to check it out! http://www.tlaxcala.es
We focus on translations, but all of us are activists, so this means we write, edit, proofread, do interviews, set up anything needed to get the information out. And yes, the pen is mightier than the sword!!!
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